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Old 18th July 2007, 09:30 PM   #41
Rob F is offline Rob F  New Zealand
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Hi Bud, All,

A night or two back a couple of friends and I tried your tweak on the negative output terminal for each channel of the power amp. We used 7 strands per loop of 28 ga copper magnet wire with 3 pieces of hetashrink addes as per your suggestions.

Neither friend was familiar with this thread and were, shall we say skeptical? Anyway the damned things work and the increase in resolutuion of recorded ambience, the decay of notes and the like was readily apparent and the system sounded worse when removed.

We then tried substituting a length of old approx 14 ga speaker cable with what appeared to be PVC insulation for the litz loops. Now this was even more remarkable in that it wrecked the sound of the system completely, plumping up and muddying the bass just for starters.

If you want to demonstrate that the loops have an effect of some kind can I suggest you demonstrate how bad this type of loop can make a good sytem sound?

Now on to experiments in different parts of the system and using finer and more strand of litz...

Regards,
Rob.

Rob.
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Old 18th July 2007, 11:53 PM   #42
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Hi Rob,

Too much dielectric is a problem, even with the 140 strands of #40 I use (because I can) from our transformer business. I make no claim that this is the best or only wire to use and it is good that you are experimenting with many fewer pieces.

When I asked the question of those who lurk here from the real world of physics, the remark was that the Litz wire will shield the internal wires from capacitive effects. Looks as though you are proving this out.

Don't hesitate to put some on your small signal devices, like phono cartridge ground side. Just plan on using 1/2 as much dielectric or less. Works on Tape Heads too, with the same amount needed there as well.

Too much dielectric always ends up sounding thick and overblown whereas, just enough sounds natural, but there is color everywhere you would expect it, from a live performance.

Please keep reporting your success's and failures, we will all learn from them.

Bud
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Old 19th July 2007, 08:45 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hartono
Hi I_F,

BudP is just describing what he experienced in his experiment, we just trying to find out why it sounds different, maybe also not necessarily improvement. The theory maybe is incorrect(all theory is subject to improvement), but with further experiment and open mind maybe we can learn something out of this.

If it turns out that he is experiencing placebo effect, I believe he would tell us later.
[snip]

Sorry for the late reply...

I think the issue is that it doesn't sound different. So why chasing a theory?

And, I'm sure you know, one of the prime attributes of a placebo effect is that you are unaware of it. Difficult to tell then that is is, isn't it?

Jan Didden
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Old 19th July 2007, 11:51 AM   #44
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Could it be that these loops are acting as aerials and injecting some RF into the ground? And if there is already RF in the signal line then maybe it can cancel out somehow?

Just an idea...
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Old 19th July 2007, 05:58 PM   #45
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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beau2317,

Really, I do not know what cause/effect scenario is at play. It is certainly an unusual thought that they may be some form of nano capacitance, sheet charge effect, electron accumulator. How they might be an antenna, when hung out on a loudspeaker is also a bit difficult to understand.

That this might be their working mode does make more sense once we get inside of the equipment box, but why a loop of wire with some small pieces of polypropylene distributed along it would be a useful expression while pieces of wire with a continuous dielectric would be unacceptably rude sounding, when mounted on the outside of an amplifier, is not real obvious.

As before, I will be happy to provide a couple of loops, made to hook up to a speaker terminal ground, at the input terminal, to any EE/physics/blind test devote that wants to disprove or even perhaps explore this odd, below signal return, phenomena.

That this might happen at the upcoming BC audio fest is a hope of mine. Certainly the speakers involved will be up to the task as they have a pair of EnABL'd Fostex 127 E's that have lost their peaky behavior and gained about 3 times the resolution found in the standard driver. This according to Planet 10.

There will also be a set of speaker cables whose dielectric scheme is based upon this discovery and a pair of interconnects to boot. I am not sure what kind of "blind" this group will be experiencing, but some sort of test should occur.

Bud
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Old 19th July 2007, 07:02 PM   #46
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by BudP
beau2317,



There will also be a set of speaker cables whose dielectric scheme is based upon this discovery and a pair of interconnects to boot. I am not sure what kind of "blind" this group will be experiencing, but some sort of test should occur.

Bud

If the history of previous events casa Frugel is any predictor, there will certainly be some blindness by evening's end - but it has yet to prevent us from trying a few things. (or remembering the experience of some that never actually happened)
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Old 19th July 2007, 09:38 PM   #47
Rob F is offline Rob F  New Zealand
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Beau,

I doubt rf is the explanation in that position if only for the reason that in that application there was already at least 3 metres of speaker cable connected into that node acting as an aerial already.

Oh BTW what did you HEAR? I understand you have heard the system I tried it in yesterday with and without the loop:-?

Regards,
Rob.
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Old 19th July 2007, 11:03 PM   #48
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Yes I did hear an improvement on that system. I then went home and made up some litz wire loops as per spec, using some cardas litz wire I had lying about. It made a difference (according to my golden eared wife) but she thought it was not a positive change. I was less sure about whether there was a difference.

More experimentation to follow. Intrigued.
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Old 19th July 2007, 11:17 PM   #49
Rob F is offline Rob F  New Zealand
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Beau,

Interesting about the results in your own system. Was the Cardas
inside an outer teflon sleeve with inner varying gauges of polyurethane coated wire as it is normally sold or was it the raw wire itself? If the former I would expect it to sound worse from my limited experience.

I have now tried loops comprising 6 individually cotton covered 28 ga silver litz solid core with 3 short lengths of heatshrink binding the bundle together on two different systems at home and here at work. The stuff was left over from another project. There was more of an improvement in the system here at work than I heard at Roy's place and at least as much of an improvement at home. So all positive so far other than the loop of old speaker cable.

Rob.
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Old 19th July 2007, 11:34 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by BudP

This amount is what is used in the loops I have connected throughout my system grounds, to maintain small signal coherence and dynamic color. It also works perfectly for Lowther PM6A's and Fostex 127 E's, mounted on the driver ground lug or ground post on the box. I will sell you some but you have to PM me.

Sell? Oh, now I get it.
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