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Old 27th November 2011, 04:42 AM   #481
Davet is offline Davet  United States
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Default Teflon Cat5 GC Loops

I constucted a couple of GC Loops from Teflon Clad Cat5 wire. There were four sets of twisted pairs and these pairs were twisted together after the outer sheath was removed. I did not place the three pieces of shrink wrap on the loops. My loops have been mounted on banana plugs which facilitate the ability to quickly swap loops in and out of my system.

I first listened to a few selections with the 30-gauge mag wire loops to attempt to set a point of reference. I then removed them and listened to the system without loops. The sound collapsed and sounded compressed/muffled. The depth and localization of instruments and vocalist was lost when the loops were removed.

I then placed the Cat5 loops in the system. Initially, nothing seem to have changed except some overly pronounced highs. I removed the loops and listened again. The highs were de-emphasized.

The Cat5 loops were re-installed. The sound stage collapsed and there was an annoying overtone/ringing in the upper register. I had to turn the volume down in order to stay in the same room. The precise location of the musicians was hard to discern.

After about 2 hours the system seemed to have gotten much louder. the annoying sounds in the upper register were tamed. There seemed to be some
more depth to the performance. The performers location was more stabilized. Just short of 3 hours it was my perception that the volume had been turned up on the system. There was a definite blooming of the bass. There seemed to be some depth to the sound stage, but the breadth that had been there with the mag loops was not apparent.

This roller coaster effect with the sound I have experienced before when burning in various capacitor and cable topologies. The sound stage with Teflon seems to really expand and contract before it stabilizes. I am hoping that things will improve over the next week or so.

I am concerned that small gauge litz wire has more surface area and that the dielectric allows the conductors to be in closer proximity to each other. I don't know if there is any validity to this supposition, but I will build another set of Cat5 loops with multiple ( 3 or 4) sets of cables. Each cable will have 4 sets of twisted pairs.

I have no preconceived expectations.

I am using CAT5 because I have that and mag wire on hand. I am considering purchasing litz wire, but I am just having fun building and listening at this point.
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Old 27th November 2011, 05:35 AM   #482
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Well don't stop!!!!! I would suggest that you may find Teflon to be a bit much. Certainly the correct direction for Dielectric Constant but the thresholds for charge holding are higher than polyilefin. Litz wire, the real stuff, type 2 with individually insulated strands that have both a low and high, very thin, Dielectric Constant insulation coating are the easiest to "tune" with bits of extra material. Doesn't mean there aren't better materials, so, in your experiments don't ignore mixed metals.......

Bud
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Old 28th November 2011, 02:18 PM   #483
marce is online now marce  United Kingdom
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Just had a look at the Walker site, regarding the "Eliminator Directional Antenae" wot a joke...well it would be if it wasn't
such a bad engineering idea.
$275 for two bits of silver wire to hook on your system, you'd be better of buying Henry Ott, Electromagnetic
compatability Engineering, (approx $95) because adding antenna to any system goes against ALL EMC engineering principles,
you do not try and add noise to your system.
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Old 28th November 2011, 04:57 PM   #484
Davet is offline Davet  United States
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Default Teflon GC Loops

I had the CD on repeat and the volume turned down. While watching the two Washington NFL football teams compete on TV, I noted that the volume seemed to be increased. Possibly gremlins!

I took a listen to the loops after 9 hours of burn-in. The performance image was flat and between the speakers. The performance, in my opinion, was unlistenable. it sounded as if all the performers were standing atop each other. I went through a series of selections, and there seemed to be no depth to the soundstage at all. I was at the point of abandoning this experiment, but I decided to let the loops burn in overnight.

The loops now have more than 30 hours of burn in. The soundstage now has depth and breadth. The tizzyness in the upper register I had noticed earlier is gone. The performers are spread out and easily discerned as to their location. There is a certain crispness to percussive sounds and reverberation of the recording venue is apparent. It least things are moving in the right direction.

I will let these loops continue to burn in up to 100-hours. It has been my prior experience with Teflon that it takes at least that long for imaging to stabilize.

If one has the patience to wait for the Teflon loops to settle down, I would recommend the DIYer to try this. Teflon clad Cat5 cable is readily available (here in the US plenum CAT5 is available at home improvement stores). For a relatively minimal expense and the time it takes to strip and solder the wires you are in business.

Magnet wire yields direct results, but the extra effort that is required to remove the insulation may be an impediment to casual DIYers.

Bud,

I realized after twisting the four twisted pairs that I had a type 2 Litz arrangement. Although, my twisting is not as uniform as a commercially manufactured Litz cable.
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Last edited by Davet; 28th November 2011 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 29th November 2011, 12:20 AM   #485
Guild is offline Guild  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davet View Post
I had the CD on repeat and the volume turned down. While watching the two Washington NFL football teams compete on TV, I noted that the volume seemed to be increased. Possibly gremlins!

I took a listen to the loops after 9 hours of burn-in. The performance image was flat and between the speakers. The performance, in my opinion, was unlistenable. it sounded as if all the performers were standing atop each other. I went through a series of selections, and there seemed to be no depth to the soundstage at all. I was at the point of abandoning this experiment, but I decided to let the loops burn in overnight.

The loops now have more than 30 hours of burn in. The soundstage now has depth and breadth. The tizzyness in the upper register I had noticed earlier is gone. The performers are spread out and easily discerned as to their location. There is a certain crispness to percussive sounds and reverberation of the recording venue is apparent. It least things are moving in the right direction.

I will let these loops continue to burn in up to 100-hours. It has been my prior experience with Teflon that it takes at least that long for imaging to stabilize.

If one has the patience to wait for the Teflon loops to settle down, I would recommend the DIYer to try this. Teflon clad Cat5 cable is readily available (here in the US plenum CAT5 is available at home improvement stores). For a relatively minimal expense and the time it takes to strip and solder the wires you are in business.

Magnet wire yields direct results, but the extra effort that is required to remove the insulation may be an impediment to casual DIYers.

Bud,

I realized after twisting the four twisted pairs that I had a type 2 Litz arrangement. Although, my twisting is not as uniform as a commercially manufactured Litz cable.


I made two sets of 6" loops, one set using 18awg Cardas hookup wire (which is high purity magnet wire with an overall teflon insulation) and the other set using 16 twisted strands of 30awg Radio Shack magnet wire (no overall insulation except for a few short pieces of heat shrink to hold the bundle together as per Bud's design). The RS loops have proved to be one of the best tweaks I've ever tried and would recommend everyone try them. The cost is negligible.
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Old 29th November 2011, 08:30 PM   #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marce View Post
Just had a look at the Walker site, regarding the "Eliminator Directional Antenae" wot a joke...well it would be if it wasn't
such a bad engineering idea.
$275 for two bits of silver wire to hook on your system, you'd be better of buying Henry Ott, Electromagnetic
compatability Engineering, (approx $95) because adding antenna to any system goes against ALL EMC engineering principles,
you do not try and add noise to your system.
"marce" connected to the chassis it won't even be a good interference antenna.
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Old 30th November 2011, 12:10 PM   #487
marce is online now marce  United Kingdom
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Speedskater, they reccomend the black, negative post of the amplifier. I still think it is both complete and utter BS and a silly thing to do, and may have minimal influence in that position. the other problem is transmitting, the wrong frequency noise in the system and they could transmit.
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Old 30th November 2011, 01:28 PM   #488
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I think it needs to be pointed out at this stage that from the theoretical standpoint Groundside Electrons have no right to work either, and indeed should be harmful to the sound for the very reasons you mention above.

So let's not get carried away before someone has the opportunity to prove in an actual listening test that "Eliminator Directional Antenae" don't work - or otherwise.

Whether they infringe on BudP's intellectual property or not is another matter of course.
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Old 30th November 2011, 03:33 PM   #489
marce is online now marce  United Kingdom
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Not getting carried away, but the Walker device is advertised, named and sold as an antenna to absorb rf in a room, but from a point of view of EMC design it is NOT good practice. It is the calling it an antenna (which it is) and the description of what it does that goes against the grain. In the UK as BT Vision and other powerline communication systems gain ground and get exemtions from OFCOM (!!!!) there will be more and more radiated mush entering the listening envoironment, as more and more audio equipement is digital based or has digital sections, the requirement for good EMC practice will become more critical, and for the home hobbyist or tweeker having the equipement to do EMC engineering will be limited. So good EMC practice needs to be followed, where possible, and personaly and from experience I dont think hanging atennas on equipement is a good idea.
And with regard to Bud's pig tails I have stated that to add them on digital equipement is not a good idea full stop from an EMC point of view. As to whether it does anything else that is up to the users, and yes it also can act as an antenna.
To rock the boat further I do not subscribe to listening tests only, as hearing can be fickle, but like measured data, so that there is empirical data to give hard results as to support the cahnge in sound and to determine what has caused it.
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Old 30th November 2011, 04:08 PM   #490
Carlp is offline Carlp  United States
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While I'm certainly a fan of data, having a science degree, I can imagine cases where data shows a difference and that knowledge makes listeners hear a difference that is, in fact, inaudible. I think that applies to some speaker data in particular. Placebo effect in reverse. Not to start anything...
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