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Old 18th June 2011, 03:56 AM   #451
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Surface and in phase volume to dielectric is the key. Typical wire is not insulated and so it's effective surface area and volume are quite low compared to type 2 Litz. Litz just has a near perfect dielectric, it's everywhere and very thin and close to the conductor which has no skin effect at 20Khz. The shrink tube just adds to taste.

Bud
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Old 18th June 2011, 08:58 AM   #452
GeneZ is offline GeneZ  United States
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So long as you connect the loops to just one plug of whatever kind, anything will work just fine.

Bud

Made 2 loops with banana plugs. First went on the speakers. It took away a certain muddy warmth. The instruments began to take up more solid space, more like a true live performance. I was not sure I liked it because the speakers were no longer compensating with a certain coloration that is common to speakers. One that the designers probably fine tune to their tastes.

Stopped after a short listen to have dinner. Then, made two more loops. These went on the small amp I use. This time a balance was there between the bottom and top that did not happen when the loops were on the speakers alone.

I like what I hear in a sense that it now sounds closer to a real live performance. No drama. Just more like what real music can sound like when played by professional relaxed musicians.

Its late. Next I will have to try this set up with another set of speakers that I am familiar with to see what changes I will notice with them.

I am not sure what to think at this point because the loops improve the music in one way, yet they more clearly reveal the deficiency of the speaker. The more it begins to sound like real music, the more you can tell how the speaker is failing to produce what should be real.

I know it is anathema to some here. But, I utilize very judiciously a Barcus Berry Sound Maximizer. Especially, because I have small speakers and the BBE I find can extend the bottom end just enough in a very convincingly good way. I do not like having a sub woofer because of the lack of time coherency, and they tend to produce bass out of proportion to the rest of the music. The BBE always adds a palpable sense of what I consider realism in what I hear. It works very well with the loops. No drama. All interconnects are litz.

Thanks, Bud...

Gene

Last edited by GeneZ; 18th June 2011 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 18th June 2011, 09:07 AM   #453
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Nice form. Original to you? May I borrow it from time-to-time? You unfortunately left out my particular brand of irrationality involving glass, metal, and a lack of matter.

lol....... you almost forgot magic snake oil capacitors

I still wish I could make a part to solder into a circuit that would cause all of the electrons to spin in zen harmony

Last edited by DavesNotHere; 18th June 2011 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 18th June 2011, 03:33 PM   #454
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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There are materials in which the electrons tend to align their spins in harmony. Certain people don't like putting such materials near their audio signals because they complain that they are magnetic and therefore a Bad Thing.

Let's just suppose for one weird moment that this Litz wire gizmo actually does change the sound. How does it do it? It is a fairly good RF conductor so it will act as an efficient resonator/antenna at UHF frequencies. It is likely to change (up or down) the amount of cell-phone or Wi-Fi signal getting into the equipment, which may change the sound (for better or worse). The length is supposed to be critical so that tends to confirm this hypothesis. Better screening or RF suppression might be a better engineering solution, but then people don't write "poetry" about stoppers or RF low pass filters. Other people won't be able to charge real money for a bit of wire with a spade lug on the end.
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Old 18th June 2011, 11:26 PM   #455
GeneZ is offline GeneZ  United States
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I read an thread in Stereophile where someone tried the loops with different amplification. With a system he had with star grounding he could hear no difference. But, in another system without star, he heard a difference.

Had more time to let this settle in. What I sense (not hear so much) is the effect one experiences when the power goes out. A quiet comes over the room. Some have told me its because I do not hear any electronic appliances working. But, I am talking about where no alliances were to begin with. There is a palatable silence when all electricity stops flowing through the walls. It can not be heard so much, as sensed. The loops cause this kind of a subtle effect when listening to the music. Its the way I have decided to define it.

Last night I found myself for the first time emotionally involved with a high quality video in a way I had not before the loops were connected. Before, I always found myself amused and entertained. But, not having that emotional connection as being in the audience and going with the flow of the music.

Its another answer to be added in to the formula. I wonder what else is out there to improve things. If I were a person of a certain mind set I would have easily passed the loops by as quackery.
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Old 19th June 2011, 12:05 AM   #456
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Quote:
Let's just suppose for one weird moment that this Litz wire gizmo actually does change the sound. How does it do it? It is a fairly good RF conductor so it will act as an efficient resonator/antenna at UHF frequencies. It is likely to change (up or down) the amount of cell-phone or Wi-Fi signal getting into the equipment, which may change the sound (for better or worse). The length is supposed to be critical so that tends to confirm this hypothesis.
Could you do some calculations and provide us with a frequency band that Type 2 Litz acts as as a receiver for? Do please include antenna shadowing for us.

Bud
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Old 19th June 2011, 01:05 AM   #457
GeneZ is offline GeneZ  United States
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Originally Posted by BudP View Post
Could you do some calculations and provide us with a frequency band that Type 2 Litz acts as as a receiver for? Do please include antenna shadowing for us.

Bud

Bud, this is a very lengthy thread. Its also an older one, so much of it I have not read.

I just read a comment about critical length and you did not question it. I see now in an early post that the litz should be 150 mm before looped. Is that length critical? That's about six inches. The loop should be about 3 inches long with the final product. Is it critical? I think what I have is now about 4 inches. I made sure to make the shrink tubing not more than .6 inches.

This one requires patience and doing lots of listening. Then, removing the loops after you have acclimated to them, and see if you notice a change. Piano overtones have a noticable difference on certain recordings from where I sit.

In the mean time. Keeping an open mind.
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Old 19th June 2011, 02:47 AM   #458
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Critical? Not so much, unless you have EnABL'd the drivers, then very critical. The rough equivalent for a noticeable change is a 2 foot long loop of zip cord, with about 2 inches of insulation removed and those bare copper ends twisted together. You will not get as well controlled a result from this, but it has proven to be audible for the many who had the courage to try it out. Some did not like the change but were prompted by the unbelievability and surprise,that there was any change, to try a more sophisticated approach. Their are many such tales buried in this thread. And if you think this is a lengthy thread take a quick look at this one, another bit of snake oil I have offered for free to any who will mix it up for themselves.

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I am so evil.....

The overall length of the Ground Control and of the other loops that diy folks made for themselves has been 6 inches in length, so a three inch stub. To date only Sy, who has a fully differential system without direct reference to ground and a fellow in NZ who has a ground plate in his preamp have spoken up about their lack of audible change. The commercial GC's have always had a 30 day money back guarantee, we have received zero back and that is from many thousands sold, and we told the dealers to take them back regardless of the time frame involved.

Bud
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Old 19th June 2011, 04:42 AM   #459
GeneZ is offline GeneZ  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudP View Post
Critical? Not so much, unless you have EnABL'd the drivers, then very critical. The rough equivalent for a noticeable change is a 2 foot long loop of zip cord, with about 2 inches of insulation removed and those bare copper ends twisted together. You will not get as well controlled a result from this, but it has proven to be audible for the many who had the courage to try it out. Some did not like the change but were prompted by the unbelievability and surprise,that there was any change, to try a more sophisticated approach. Their are many such tales buried in this thread. And if you think this is a lengthy thread take a quick look at this one, another bit of snake oil I have offered for free to any who will mix it up for themselves.

EnABL Processes - diyAudio
I am so evil.....

The overall length of the Ground Control and of the other loops that diy folks made for themselves has been 6 inches in length, so a three inch stub. To date only Sy, who has a fully differential system without direct reference to ground and a fellow in NZ who has a ground plate in his preamp have spoken up about their lack of audible change. The commercial GC's have always had a 30 day money back guarantee, we have received zero back and that is from many thousands sold, and we told the dealers to take them back regardless of the time frame involved.

Bud
I could detect a difference. Only slightly. Yet it could have come from the fact I was listening at different times in the day. Not sure if I did like what I heard at first I did not with only on the speakers, but I did notice a very positive effect when I used two on the speakers, and two on the amp outputs. That may have been attributed to other factors. Again, I will have to have patience with this.

But, I can recall that I definitely did notice one thing. Or, imagined I did. When listening to a jazz drummer in concert playing his ride cymbal, there was a difference noticed after putting the loops onto the speaker terminals. I know cymbal sounds very well. There was a change. Was it better? It all depends upon what that cymbal actually sounded like to the mic...

But, be that as it may. I will listen some more with, and without. I may try the zip wire route, as well. In the mean time I was without liquid flux so I improvised a new way to tin the ends of litz using only Radio Shack gel flux. I also found out one mistake I used to make was to start using the solder pot right after the solder in the pot melted. I now realize that I should allow that pot continue heating up for a while. Then use it. I waited about 10-15 minutes.

Last week I rewired a robot by taking out the old zip and redoing everything. He now speaks with a litz.
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Old 19th June 2011, 03:27 PM   #460
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudP
Could you do some calculations and provide us with a frequency band that Type 2 Litz acts as as a receiver for?
3 inches of any conductor when grounded to a lump of metal (such as a chassis) will have a quarter-wave resonance somewhere around 950MHz. The exact figure would depend on any dielectric loading from the shrink-wrap, and the Litz insulation, which would tend to reduce the frequency. Let's say 900MHz. Isn't that near a cell phone band?
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