Okay guys, stop here please.
This admitted nonsense over electron pools arises out of my investigation into cables, speaker and interconnect. I realize this is a sore spot and that pragmatic folks have consigned these sorts of interests to LaLa land, and deservedly so.
My reason for opening an investigation was that between the EnABL'd speakers and recent developments in my field of expertise, transformers, I was running into some pretty obvious colorations among cables. I borrowed a number of supposed world class items and some RS junk too. The Litz wire came about due to a desire to eliminate any questions about copper being the culprit. The sound of Litz wire in a cotton sleeve can only be described as dull. Extremely precise Brownian noise, no dynamics no color, just dull. It was fairly obvious at that point that the outer casing and what dielectrics it held had to be the culprit.
Going back to my studies of dielectric circuits in transformers, that due to a construction/thought breakthrough 30 years ago, basically allows elimination of the effects of hysteresis, I found that I can actually access and manipulate these lumped sum levers. Manipulate to improve coupling, accentuate time domain smears between D Field and E Field, or, by design, decouple primary and secondary to a desired amount should I care to. I make use of these tools in guitar amplifier OPT's.
These tools showed that some form of electron super population, at the dielectric barriers between primary and secondary antennas and some sort of dearth of electrons within coils could be effected by choice of dielectric constant and within those materials, with similar dielectric constants, were choices that appeared to be related to some sort of charge acceptance threshold, for low energy information coherent electrons.
I chose an easy to manipulate dielectric, polyethylene, with a constant of 4 or so, and began to experiment with the Litz wire cables, just to see what sort of alterations I could bring about. The results are startling and show that while the high end cable makers have some vague idea of what is going to alter their cable colorations, there is no body of knowledge with any sort of scientific rigor, that I could find, that addresses what, how much and why alterations are possible. Hence it is snake oil, no doubt about it.
The electron pools are just an outgrowth of these investigations. They came about because the signals I was obtaining, in the system I have to hand, had gotten so dense with detailed signal information in both transient and color dynamics, that when it ran out of support for these signals, the sonic character became thin and quite sharp in transients and flat, literally off key and sour sounding, in extremely dense and strenuous musical passages.
Repeatedly, in the same places, in the same pieces, as will be strongly attested to by my long suffering wife.
Now it was obvious to me that the professional engineers involved were not a duplicitous lot. They had done their best to make sure that signal side electronics and signal information were of the highest possible caliber, so, what was left.... the ground side?
The very first short pieces of Litz, with small pieces of polyethylene on them were immediately successful in remedying these small problems, where, from my studies of dielectric circuits in audio transformers, I was pretty sure we had run out of carrier electrons.
Those first pieces were circuit cables by the way, actual ground buss carriers. The loops came about just as an experiment, sort of a confirmation that it was some sort of electron holding action, keeping some important group of them from evacuating to service ground, that was being performed by the Litz and plastic, but this time in loops that are probably below ground potential, but, maybe not.
Hence my questions in a couple of threads on this forum.
Bud
This admitted nonsense over electron pools arises out of my investigation into cables, speaker and interconnect. I realize this is a sore spot and that pragmatic folks have consigned these sorts of interests to LaLa land, and deservedly so.
My reason for opening an investigation was that between the EnABL'd speakers and recent developments in my field of expertise, transformers, I was running into some pretty obvious colorations among cables. I borrowed a number of supposed world class items and some RS junk too. The Litz wire came about due to a desire to eliminate any questions about copper being the culprit. The sound of Litz wire in a cotton sleeve can only be described as dull. Extremely precise Brownian noise, no dynamics no color, just dull. It was fairly obvious at that point that the outer casing and what dielectrics it held had to be the culprit.
Going back to my studies of dielectric circuits in transformers, that due to a construction/thought breakthrough 30 years ago, basically allows elimination of the effects of hysteresis, I found that I can actually access and manipulate these lumped sum levers. Manipulate to improve coupling, accentuate time domain smears between D Field and E Field, or, by design, decouple primary and secondary to a desired amount should I care to. I make use of these tools in guitar amplifier OPT's.
These tools showed that some form of electron super population, at the dielectric barriers between primary and secondary antennas and some sort of dearth of electrons within coils could be effected by choice of dielectric constant and within those materials, with similar dielectric constants, were choices that appeared to be related to some sort of charge acceptance threshold, for low energy information coherent electrons.
I chose an easy to manipulate dielectric, polyethylene, with a constant of 4 or so, and began to experiment with the Litz wire cables, just to see what sort of alterations I could bring about. The results are startling and show that while the high end cable makers have some vague idea of what is going to alter their cable colorations, there is no body of knowledge with any sort of scientific rigor, that I could find, that addresses what, how much and why alterations are possible. Hence it is snake oil, no doubt about it.
The electron pools are just an outgrowth of these investigations. They came about because the signals I was obtaining, in the system I have to hand, had gotten so dense with detailed signal information in both transient and color dynamics, that when it ran out of support for these signals, the sonic character became thin and quite sharp in transients and flat, literally off key and sour sounding, in extremely dense and strenuous musical passages.
Repeatedly, in the same places, in the same pieces, as will be strongly attested to by my long suffering wife.
Now it was obvious to me that the professional engineers involved were not a duplicitous lot. They had done their best to make sure that signal side electronics and signal information were of the highest possible caliber, so, what was left.... the ground side?
The very first short pieces of Litz, with small pieces of polyethylene on them were immediately successful in remedying these small problems, where, from my studies of dielectric circuits in audio transformers, I was pretty sure we had run out of carrier electrons.
Those first pieces were circuit cables by the way, actual ground buss carriers. The loops came about just as an experiment, sort of a confirmation that it was some sort of electron holding action, keeping some important group of them from evacuating to service ground, that was being performed by the Litz and plastic, but this time in loops that are probably below ground potential, but, maybe not.
Hence my questions in a couple of threads on this forum.
Bud
John, as I think you've been invited to do on other occasions, you might want to try these out for yourself.
There are enough bizarre claims made for audio gear, accessories or tweaks, that it's easy enough to shout "snake oil" in the absence of hard scientific or engineering proof one way or the other ( I've done that often enough myself), but there are simply times when logical explanations have yet to be formulated that describe what our emotions perceive.
For whatever the subjective opinions of one non-engineer (that'd be me) and one long time electronic tech (that'd be Gregg) are worth in this discussion- based on several hours of listening with and without the external pigtails attached to a pair of Fostex FE127E drivers, we definitely experienced an increase in resolution and coherency of low level detail. And no, there wasn't any "herbal tea" before the listening session.
We left Bud's place with a sample pair of the little gadgets, as well as a pair of EnAbl'd drivers - the Fostex FE127E that were pictured in his post on another thread. So far he has yet to request any payment for either of these products - that has certainly not been my experience with the few snake oil salesmen I've encountered in over 40yrs of hi-fi hobby.
His interest for the moment appears to be validation of these concepts from a wider audience of experienced listeners. Well, I think it's fair to say that there are 3 of us presently on that list, and after a little get DIY together at the end of the month, I'd expect a few more.
.
There are enough bizarre claims made for audio gear, accessories or tweaks, that it's easy enough to shout "snake oil" in the absence of hard scientific or engineering proof one way or the other ( I've done that often enough myself), but there are simply times when logical explanations have yet to be formulated that describe what our emotions perceive.
For whatever the subjective opinions of one non-engineer (that'd be me) and one long time electronic tech (that'd be Gregg) are worth in this discussion- based on several hours of listening with and without the external pigtails attached to a pair of Fostex FE127E drivers, we definitely experienced an increase in resolution and coherency of low level detail. And no, there wasn't any "herbal tea" before the listening session.
We left Bud's place with a sample pair of the little gadgets, as well as a pair of EnAbl'd drivers - the Fostex FE127E that were pictured in his post on another thread. So far he has yet to request any payment for either of these products - that has certainly not been my experience with the few snake oil salesmen I've encountered in over 40yrs of hi-fi hobby.
His interest for the moment appears to be validation of these concepts from a wider audience of experienced listeners. Well, I think it's fair to say that there are 3 of us presently on that list, and after a little get DIY together at the end of the month, I'd expect a few more.
.
Just as scientific is proving beyond reasonable doubt whay something does does work is proving why something not.
Just because we don't have the formula or method to prove why these work, fact is they do.
I am a jerk and a skeptical one at that. I can say that being tested under three totally different venues and circumstances (at Bud's place, Tim's and mine), I heard a difference. Quite an improved one with them
Experimentation is needed, as Bud says. So let's put the DIY in the audio and see what we can do.
Just because we don't have the formula or method to prove why these work, fact is they do.
I am a jerk and a skeptical one at that. I can say that being tested under three totally different venues and circumstances (at Bud's place, Tim's and mine), I heard a difference. Quite an improved one with them
Experimentation is needed, as Bud says. So let's put the DIY in the audio and see what we can do.
weirder and weirder
Hi,
Just an update on the latest experiments. Thanks to my friend Richard we have tried substituting in place of the litz loops a small common mode choke with the windings joined at both "ends" and a length of wire run from one end to the negative speaker terminal.
These handily beat the litz wire loops comprising 7 or 8 fine wires.
I don't know whether the fact these are inductors with a core makes a difference or not... However the cores appear to be coated in nylon or another plastic as insulation AND a plastic bobbin is inserted into the hole in the toroid; the ends of the windings are terminated on that.
There is quite a lot of fine magnet wire used in winding these things so there will be more wire than the loops we were comparing them to. AND like the loops only some of the wire contacts a plastic dielectric. So this observation may only hold for these particular chokes (NZ$1:50 each surplus).
I will try to post a pic to make up for my poor description later.
If I rememeber to bring my
Hi,
Just an update on the latest experiments. Thanks to my friend Richard we have tried substituting in place of the litz loops a small common mode choke with the windings joined at both "ends" and a length of wire run from one end to the negative speaker terminal.
These handily beat the litz wire loops comprising 7 or 8 fine wires.
I don't know whether the fact these are inductors with a core makes a difference or not... However the cores appear to be coated in nylon or another plastic as insulation AND a plastic bobbin is inserted into the hole in the toroid; the ends of the windings are terminated on that.
There is quite a lot of fine magnet wire used in winding these things so there will be more wire than the loops we were comparing them to. AND like the loops only some of the wire contacts a plastic dielectric. So this observation may only hold for these particular chokes (NZ$1:50 each surplus).
I will try to post a pic to make up for my poor description later.
If I rememeber to bring my
Geek said:Just as scientific is proving beyond reasonable doubt whay something does does work is proving why something not.
Just because we don't have the formula or method to prove why these work, fact is they do.
I am a jerk and a skeptical one at that. I can say that being tested under three totally different venues and circumstances (at Bud's place, Tim's and mine), I heard a difference. Quite an improved one with them
Experimentation is needed, as Bud says. So let's put the DIY in the audio and see what we can do.
ya nutz;
ya hearin' things..........
Jeff,
Look for a dielectric constant number for polyolefin. If it is around 2.4 then use it. This does mean that Teflon should also be good and probably polypropylene, though neither will shrink and you must then find sleeving that is close to your wire bundle diameter.
Well, adding a small amount of ferrous material is better. Hmm, someone who has one should try a Teflon capacitor, specifically one with a small amount of inductance, to see what comes from that......
Mebe a whole nother circuit down here in the Morlok caverns, with tubes and arguments and all of the stuff those guys up in the light get to do...
Bud
Look for a dielectric constant number for polyolefin. If it is around 2.4 then use it. This does mean that Teflon should also be good and probably polypropylene, though neither will shrink and you must then find sleeving that is close to your wire bundle diameter.
Well, adding a small amount of ferrous material is better. Hmm, someone who has one should try a Teflon capacitor, specifically one with a small amount of inductance, to see what comes from that......
Mebe a whole nother circuit down here in the Morlok caverns, with tubes and arguments and all of the stuff those guys up in the light get to do...
Bud
Seems heat shrink is available in PVC as well, which has a much higher dielectric constant. This stuff I am trialling is of unknown material - it was in a cheap "bulk" pack. It might be PVC.
I'll pop down and get the polyolefin variety, which is as close to the k=2.4 you suggest as I'm likely to find around here. From a quick Google search it seems in the 2.2 - 2.3 range.
I'll pop down and get the polyolefin variety, which is as close to the k=2.4 you suggest as I'm likely to find around here. From a quick Google search it seems in the 2.2 - 2.3 range.
We're calling these "loops"; are both ends soldered to each other or are they just folded back on itself inside the covering and only one end connected to the circuit? Just never could get this out of context or the pic on post #40.
As I was reading through the thread was thinking, if this has to do with "sinking" electrons, couldn't some form of plastic film cap be used instead of the Litz?
Scott
As I was reading through the thread was thinking, if this has to do with "sinking" electrons, couldn't some form of plastic film cap be used instead of the Litz?
Scott
scottw
In the original pools the ends were soldered together, making a shorted turn of wire out of 140 strands of #40 AWG insulated transformer coil wire.
Recently others have shorted the windings on a common mode choke and have had a change in sound when it was hooked up to a ground buss..
I do think someone should use a Teflon audio choke, with both ends shorted to a ground buss of note, and report back.
Bud
In the original pools the ends were soldered together, making a shorted turn of wire out of 140 strands of #40 AWG insulated transformer coil wire.
Recently others have shorted the windings on a common mode choke and have had a change in sound when it was hooked up to a ground buss..
I do think someone should use a Teflon audio choke, with both ends shorted to a ground buss of note, and report back.
Bud
I had a few rolls of magnet wire lying around so I figured why not, and spent an hour or so twisting wire together and making some nice little loops. I didn't have any heat shrink tubing so I substituted some Teflon plumber's tape, then stuck the loops on the outputs of my CD player. That was about a week ago.
I can't believe it works. On my own system the effect is fairly subtle, there's a tiny bit more texture and the sound is a little smoother and easier to listen to for long periods of time. On my friend's high-resolution system it's a much bigger difference, it's like the mids & highs have come into focus and the overall contrast & dynamics have been turned up a couple notches. Very nice, but now I have to find a way to tune up the rest of my headphone & amp system to match the increased performance of the CD player.
I can't believe it works. On my own system the effect is fairly subtle, there's a tiny bit more texture and the sound is a little smoother and easier to listen to for long periods of time. On my friend's high-resolution system it's a much bigger difference, it's like the mids & highs have come into focus and the overall contrast & dynamics have been turned up a couple notches. Very nice, but now I have to find a way to tune up the rest of my headphone & amp system to match the increased performance of the CD player.
aerius
Don't hesitate to make some more loops. Put one on the ground side of your amps input output buss and one on the signal return of your driver stage, if you know how to locate it and can safely attach the wires and separate them from other circuit traces, with a firm, extra low dielectric material, like cardboard. Or go get some gym shoe, flat, hollow, cotton laces and put the wires in that.
Don't hesitate to curl the wires up to take minimum space. You could do the very same thing to the headphones, best if it can happen right at the driver terminals ground side though.
Get some heat shrink tubing, it's way easier than fighting with Teflon tape.... or not.
Bud
Don't hesitate to make some more loops. Put one on the ground side of your amps input output buss and one on the signal return of your driver stage, if you know how to locate it and can safely attach the wires and separate them from other circuit traces, with a firm, extra low dielectric material, like cardboard. Or go get some gym shoe, flat, hollow, cotton laces and put the wires in that.
Don't hesitate to curl the wires up to take minimum space. You could do the very same thing to the headphones, best if it can happen right at the driver terminals ground side though.
Get some heat shrink tubing, it's way easier than fighting with Teflon tape.... or not.
Bud
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