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Old 24th May 2007, 07:59 AM   #31
Hartono is offline Hartono  Indonesia
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Hi BudP,

I also mostly examining the effect of your litz in high frequency, dielectric effect and radiation effect, and considering the enviroment they're being used.

I always hate PCB, yes they are wonderfully practical, but sticking to FR4(or even teflon) material and 2D layout is bound to have drawbacks.

mix and match is needed for optimum circuit peformance

Litz for reinforcing ground is a surprisingly good idea.

I'll let you know soon, after I finish my examination.


Hartono.
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Old 6th June 2007, 11:39 AM   #32
Hartono is offline Hartono  Indonesia
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Hi BudP,

After spending a few days thinking , I couldn't find anything substantial, other that the Litz wire reinforcing the PCB ground , and reflect/absorb RF noise differently than normal groundplane.

Cheers,
Hartono
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Old 7th June 2007, 04:31 AM   #33
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Hi,

Hartono,

one other factor with litz vs a groundplane is that the litz will have less eddy currents. I have seen a PCB grounding system implemented where the ground returns comprised multiple parallel tracks as opposed to one wide track to combat exactly this "problem" if it can be characterised as such.

This is another thought provoking thread in addition to the Enable thread, my thanks to you Bud for your generosity in sharing.

Rob.
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Old 7th June 2007, 07:33 AM   #34
Hartono is offline Hartono  Indonesia
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"one other factor with litz vs a groundplane is that the litz will have less eddy currents"

Yes might be true, and also maybe application specific in this case. Some application benefit more than others. Actually I think it's not that Litz have less eddy currents(EC) ,if seen from magnetic point of view, the EC on one conductor of the litz cause EC in adjacent conductor thus reducing inductance / skin effect.

If seen from speed of electron point of view, the field generated by the current passing through the conductor is crossing over another conductor, and since electron speed via conductor is faster than air , hence less skin effect . Basically the same thing.

Hartono
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Old 7th June 2007, 07:52 AM   #35
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Rob, Hartono,

You are certainly welcome to this foolishness. If designers were able to convince the cost accountants that a true poured ground plane with instrumentation implementation was a real benefit and even find a way to shmaltz it up for the lazier marketing groups, this Litz wire issue would never have arisen.

The only reason it affects performance is because of poor ground plane implementation, forced upon EE's, who not only know better, but would utilize a proper one in a heart beat. I have all of the proof of this I need in my headphone amp, in which all circuit boards have a poured ground plane and instrumentation grounding. The Litz wires, that are so successful in the CD player with it's cut to the bone circuit layout, provide only the slightest difference in the headphone amp. And, I cannot even claim it is a "better" sound, just slightly more low level, wide band coherence, in information content.

Bud
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Old 7th June 2007, 08:13 AM   #36
Hartono is offline Hartono  Indonesia
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Hi Bud,

I think we're thinking on the same ballpark here . This make me think that since signal is not only travelling in the conductor ( the electromagnet field travel around the conductor) oxidized surface of copper might introduce noise.

Hartono
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Old 9th July 2007, 07:13 PM   #37
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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update to this thread

Thanks to Bud and Sue's hospitality, I recently got an opportunity to hear (among other wonders) the difference that of one of these little pigtails can make in an already very good sounding, but not trendy-spendy system, including speakers with which I'm intimately familiar.


I don't have the technical acumen to understand exactly what's going on here (who does, really) nor the lexicon or writing skills to poetically describe what I heard, so a few brief phrases:

refined resolution of very small signal levels ("deep down dynamic range")

coherency

image dimensionality and stability


For example, one of my reference tracks is on a piece* that includes 3 female vocals in tight harmony, and accompanied by handheld percussion as well as fiddle, guitar, a small accordion, and other instrumentation of which I lose track - the vocal tone painting is too overwhelming .
Even with Bud's mojo EnAbl treatment on the driver cones, the addition of this little piece of wire focused the articulation of the singers' individual breath intakes while others are still expressing, and the difference between the sound of the accordion when squeezed and pulled more precisely and 3 dimensionally than I'd yet heard it.

*Wailin Jennys /Firecracker ; track 5 "Swallow" (the bird) This album grows on ya even more than the earlier 40 Days


Another great track for low level resolution is Kevin Mahogany,/ Double Rainbow "Since I fell for you"- the resolution of texture, pressure and tone on the swirling brushwork is simply more convincing with the coherency of "information packets" is retained.

Of course I know none of this is not possible, so "Bud, you've got some 'splainin to do"
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Old 9th July 2007, 08:18 PM   #38
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Yes, this demonstration was incredible.

When Bud removed the loops, it was like hitting the "mono" button by comparison.

I can't explain it and I'm a rediculous skeptic, but this one works!

It is an excellent way to increase the downward dynamic range a driver can have.

Cheers!
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Old 17th July 2007, 03:25 AM   #39
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This thread is pulling in lurkers from all across the web...many different audio forums are linking in.

Someone please post some pictures so that we can visualize what EXACTLY you are doing here.

TIA
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Old 17th July 2007, 06:33 AM   #40
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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greenvalve,

Here is a picture of a piece of true Litz wire, 140 strands of #40 AWG insulated magnet coil wire from our transformer business), tinned but without the pieces of shrink wrap tubing I use for dielectrics.

The encased item is just another piece of Litz wire, doubled back on itself, with appropriately sized pieces of tubing, The yellow end cap corresponds to a specific amount of dielectric.

This amount is what is used in the loops I have connected throughout my system grounds, to maintain small signal coherence and dynamic color. It also works perfectly for Lowther PM6A's and Fostex 127 E's, mounted on the driver ground lug or ground post on the box. I will sell you some but you have to PM me.

Bud
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