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Old 20th May 2007, 05:00 AM   #11
Hartono is offline Hartono  Indonesia
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Hi I_F,

BudP is just describing what he experienced in his experiment, we just trying to find out why it sounds different, maybe also not necessarily improvement. The theory maybe is incorrect(all theory is subject to improvement), but with further experiment and open mind maybe we can learn something out of this.

If it turns out that he is experiencing placebo effect, I believe he would tell us later.

"And you will then change the subject to:
( ) theories are not the same as facts
( ) measurements don't tell everything
( ) not everyone is subject to the placebo effect
(x) blind testing is dumb
(x) you can't prove what I can't hear
(x) science isn't everything"

.....................oh come on , don't be so harsh on BudP.

theory is good, yes, the only problem is when the theory is incomplete or even downright wrong, that's why we are discussing it.

It would be better to invite you to explain why this might not lead to different sound.

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Old 20th May 2007, 05:18 AM   #12
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Please, PM me with your mailing addresses, I will send you both a pair and you can decide.

I do like the form, but there is nothing to defend, it just works, just as I have reported.

I also think it's ridiculous, right up there with EnABL, self demagnetizing E/I core construction, E Field shaping of tone in guitar OPT's, adjustable musical color speaker cables and interconnects, all of them are crazy, none of them fit into nice neat simple mathematical derivations, but they all work, same way, every time and so I just stupidly keep doing them.

If it were drug addiction at least it would be explainable.

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Old 20th May 2007, 09:08 AM   #13
Hartono is offline Hartono  Indonesia
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a pair of ?? litz speaker cable ?
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Old 20th May 2007, 10:20 AM   #14
Hartono is offline Hartono  Indonesia
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while looking for conductive brush article, I found this article:


"One common misconception is that conductive materials do not generate charges. This is because the dissipation of static charges from grounded conductive material tends to be complete and rapid. Ungrounded conductors can generate and hold static charges."

What the.......................
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Old 20th May 2007, 02:21 PM   #15
Ed LaFontaine is offline Ed LaFontaine  United States
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Thanks for your gentle response. I knew I might place a bulls eye on my forehead with that one.
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Old 20th May 2007, 03:02 PM   #16
c2cthomas is offline c2cthomas  United States
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Hi Ed,

I have a great deal of respect for you and the questions you pose.

You are not afraid to ask the questions that others simply think about but instead of asking themselves or others what really is going on they react by shooting off their shallow thoughts that more often than not reflect on their closed and biased thinking.

You at least have an inquiring mind and when a concept is unclear you stick your hand up from your seat in the back row and politely ask. You have a great gift in that sir - a gift possessed buy few - and that is the intelligence to ask and the willingness to listen.

When I hear a question posed by someone such as yourself I listen and I learn as well. Doing this is a pleasure.

Listening to others that think they already "know it all" and yet demonstrate just how little they are willing to listen to a theory or concept (without reasoning or respect for one that has years of experience) is a rather dismal exercise in that it is just a waste of time on the part of both parties. The fact that some of them need to resort to some sort of check off list rather that clearly express their thoughts or disagreement is laughable, callous, and revealing.

If you are interested in some of what I think is going on with BudP's "poured ground" see this article by Mr. Browkaw and Mr. Barrow at Analog Devices. http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/...0828AN_345.pdf

As both of these gentlemen have their degrees (as does BudP) years of experience (as does BudP) and work for a major corporation well known for their quality engineering (BudP has his own little company) perhaps what they have scientifically studied and published a paper on will carry a little bit more weight.

I'm still wrapping myself around this concept but I believe that the tip of the iceberg is shown in the last couple of pages.

At the risk of being repetitive Ed, please feel free to ask any darn question you bloody well feel like anytime. Your questions are always welcome and refreshing!

Hope this helps!

DIY audio can be expensive but getting to see things go up in smoke - that's priceless!!!! ..... "whatever - call it brainfart of Mighty ZM"
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Old 20th May 2007, 03:13 PM   #17
SY is offline SY  United States
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Default Re: Not on the playing field...from back in the bleachers

Originally posted by Ed LaFontaine

Are electrons compressible?
deltaP*deltaX > h-bar/2.

As far as we can tell at this point (and that's pretty far), electrons are point objects. You can compress the probability amplitude, subject to the above fundamental relation, but the electron itself is already basically sizeless. There's a classical radius (a little under 3x10-15 m), but that has no real physical meaning. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to calculate the momentum associated with that delta x.
"You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is."
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Old 20th May 2007, 04:11 PM   #18
I_Forgot is offline I_Forgot  United States
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Originally posted by SY
Nice form. Original to you? May I borrow it from time-to-time?
You can only use it if you add something to it. It was originally (?- first time I've seen it) posted by Sean Adams at Slimdevices in response to a question posted on their audiophile forum about whether a titanium dental implant might cause some interference to a wireless SB3.

Never underestimate the power of self-delusion!

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Old 21st May 2007, 11:43 PM   #19
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Now that we have taken our due load of flack for asking questions I want to propose a test regimen. Not to find out only that this practice is worthless and ridiculous, but instead to discover what it can tell us about ground side, signal electrons, and what we can do to influence their performance in our information systems. C2C provided a link to a paper published about ground plane issues and the test devices are intriguing. Here is the paper's location.


The methods used here appear as though they could be used for a closer focus on the differences between ground plane, no ground plane, ground plane with Litz and no ground plane with Litz.

I am not a wealthy man but I do have some barter proposals for three separate EE' s who can provide a test regimen and equipment that the community of your peers here, and two professional level EE's specializing in audio and digital electronic local to me, think should be able to look at this question for the rest of us.

My barter proposal is as follows.You will provide the test materials that can be agreed upon, other than the Litz wire pieces. To offset your efforts I offer a pair of OPT's to your specifications, at our maximum level of performance.

They have the following limitations.

For SE, DC B+ not to exceed 700 volts. AC signal not to exceed 48% of that. DC current not to exceed 180 ma and SE power not to exceed 60 watts.

For Push Pull, DC B+ not to exceed 700 volts. Ac signal not to exceed 48% of that per half of primary, DC current not to exceed 500 ma and PP power not to exceed 120 watts.

Either style may have screen taps at 43% and or 10 % or other points of interest.

Or, a full set of Speaker cables and four interconnects, provided without plugs, but otherwise finished. These are Litz wire cables with cotton over braid and discreet plastic dielectric that can be removed or added to or altered for frequency balance in musical dynamics The speaker cables are limited to 12 feet per cable. The interconnects will be 15 gauge equivalent, a maximum of 2 meters in length and be unshielded. I assure you, this is not a problem with unbalanced, true Litz cables. The speaker cables will be 12 gauge equivalent. You will also receive one, 1 meter long, Litz SPDIF cable if desired. This will have RCA plugs attached.

In either case, you will get a product with very wide band, low distortion performance. I have yet to find the resolution limits of either transformers or cables and I can assure you that I have speakers and amplifiers, utilizing both, that are equivalent to full range bare ribbon tweeters, in the reproduction of music.

The ground rules also include a requirement that the three of you publish the results here and that you treat the project as one that has a high probability of success and you are actually interested in discovering the inherent limitations of that success. You will have to provide your own test gear and it will need to be competent to discover information within complex and simple signals that relates to comprehensibility. In other words I want you to be willing to prove the changes are real and also willing to venture opinions about possible improvements.

If there is indeed nothing that can be found, as a difference that can be laid at the door, of the benefit that ground side electron retention in Litz wire might provide, you still get your barter objects.

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Old 22nd May 2007, 03:50 AM   #20
Hartono is offline Hartono  Indonesia
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well Bud, I'm interested to investigate this phenomena, not because of any incentive other than gaining new knowledge.

About the barter, we'll talk about it later

I do want to find explanation why it sounds different.
I assume you heard the difference and that's enough reason for me to investigate.

maybe you can start telling on which equipment ( CD, Amp, Pre-amp)
the effect of ground plane modification is strongest. and which one is less , and also try to describe the changes in the reproduced sound for each equipment.

It would also be nice if you can specify the equipment type/model.

from there on we will begin a series of examination, and if possible, some test.

I suspect the effect on different equipment is different, remembering their operating extremes, CD player has lot's of high frequency content and radiation, Pre-amp need low noise and distortion, Power amp has high current circulating around the ground.

Also identification of PCB material (FR4 , Teflon ,Phenolic , etc)

the way the PCB is suspended from the chassis (metal,plastic spacers)

single side / double side copper, ground plane coverage (%)

and also need the investigation/guess from your side, why it behaves that way for a particular hardware implementation.

what do you think of this approach ?

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