Groundside Electrons - Page 15 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Design & Build > Parts

Parts Where to get, and how to make the best bits. PCB's, caps, transformers, etc.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 24th August 2007, 12:03 AM   #141
BudP is offline BudP  United States
diyAudio Member
 
BudP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: upper left crust, united snakes
Nordic,

The surface area ratio may or may not be pertinent. In a cable carrying signal, only the outer surface of any wire is actually using the surrounding dielectric. The remaining internal wires and their surfaces, in a Litz bundle, are blocked from "seeing" that surrounding dielectric. This is true for bare copper wire. May be less true for a dielectric coated wire used in a Litz bundle, and no one that I have spoken to will hazard what might be true when the Litz bundle is used at or below ground potential for an aledged storage event.

Certainly the same "signal mirror" of the true ground plane is not occurring with the Litz. But, since a ground plane has motile electrons flying around on it, in opposition to the plus side signal events occurring next to it, there has to be an electron storage event gong on during these signal events.

True Litz is determined by it having a total surface area at least 10 times that found in a thermally equivalent solid core wire, using the common circular mils formula, so the 140 turns of # 40 I use, is thermally equivalent to #15 wire and it has 13 times the surface area. I don't know about rivaling a true poured instrument style ground plane for surface area though.

Bud
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2007, 12:22 AM   #142
diyAudio Member
 
Geek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Out of curiosity, what if we do this.. a large surface area in a large space. A metal plate on the entire back of the speaker cab, connected to the ground terminal, with the plate coated with dielectric
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2007, 03:22 AM   #143
BudP is offline BudP  United States
diyAudio Member
 
BudP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: upper left crust, united snakes
Greg,

An even more curious suggestion, would be a tripartite ground plane, composed of lead, copper and titanium.

Slow, medium and fast electrons!!!!!

Then you could use tapes made of differing dielectrics and widths and "tape to taste".

IIIIIIEEEEEeeeee!!!!!!!!!

Actually a center pole piece covering sheet of copper, connected to the negative speaker terminal, with a voice coil made from Nomex would be suitable, shorting or non shorting, and no taping to taste.

Ah well, we all knew the foolishness underlying all of this would get loose sooner or later.....

Bud
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2007, 05:38 AM   #144
diyAudio Member
 
Geek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Quote:
Originally posted by BudP
An even more curious suggestion, would be a tripartite ground plane, composed of lead, copper and titanium.

Slow, medium and fast electrons!!!!!

Then you could use tapes made of differing dielectrics and widths and "tape to taste".
There's a lineup of forum lurkers at the patent office at this moment, I'm sure!
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2007, 06:53 AM   #145
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
Nanook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chinook Country.Alberta
Bud P:
Quote:
Was I supposed to contact you about transformers? It is my field of endeavor. I do have some interesting points to make concerning the derivations from field theory and a question to address concerning bulk electromagnetic discharge behavior. Perhaps the answer is in one of your books?

nope Moray was

to all: regarding the books I recommended, understanding basic electro-statics is a must prior to understanding basic electro-dynamics. And unless you have a couple of university level intro courses to Calculus, pretty much impossible to mathematically "figure out". And the solutions don't have much meaning in a "macro" sense, only a "micro" sense, so providing examples from everyday life may not be the most suitable.

I'd urge any who want some basic guidelines and a good physics overview look for "Halliday and Resnick, Fundamentals of Physics. A great book, not neccessarily all Calculus based. A description is here

ok, too much thinking...not enough music....
__________________
stew -"A sane man in an insane world appears insane."
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2007, 08:45 PM   #146
frugal-phile(tm)
diyAudio Moderator
 
planet10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Victoria, BC, NA, Sol III
Blog Entries: 5
Quote:
Originally posted by Nanook
And unless you have a couple of university level intro courses to Calculus, pretty much impossible to mathematically "figure out".
I have those, but have mostly forgotten thru lack of use.... the 3rd year real analysis course with the badly translated Russian text and the barely could speak English professor sort of turned me off that whole end of math.

dave
__________________
community sites t-linespeakers.org, frugal-horn.com, frugal-phile.com ........ commercial site planet10-HiFi
p10-hifi forum here at diyA
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2007, 07:58 AM   #147
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
Nanook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chinook Country.Alberta
Default Dave, et al...

I wasn't trying to behave like a "math snob" 'cause I'm not.

But vector calculus and 3rd order partial differential equations can be a handfull for many who have been educated in them. I was only trying to point out that besides an "understanding" of the physics, some serious mathematics is required to actually attempt to solve some of the equations and problems in E-M theory. That's all. And I'm certainly not an authority on any of it, other than taking the cources and actually passing them.

for any that are interested, the texts I had suggested are very good, particularly the Halliday and Resnick, as you can start with "nothing" in a physics education and end up with a pretty profound understanding of classical mechanics, an idea of what quatntum mechanics is, the symmetry of some systems, elctrostatics and electrodynamics.

as a point of interest have a look at the attached image
Attached Images
File Type: gif force of gravity and electric.gif (2.9 KB, 733 views)
__________________
stew -"A sane man in an insane world appears insane."
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2007, 12:02 PM   #148
...truth seeker...
diyAudio Member
 
Ed LaFontaine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: where the Appalachians rise from the Blue Grass
Nanook,
I certainly benefit from your illumination of the math and physics. I have included Halliday and Resnick to the short list of references to add to my library. A search has shown many used copies available at what I consider must be bargain prices. Thanks for all.
I face the same challenge trying to understand Geddes' basis for the waveguide.
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2007, 03:45 PM   #149
frugal-phile(tm)
diyAudio Moderator
 
planet10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Victoria, BC, NA, Sol III
Blog Entries: 5
Default Re: Dave, et al...

Quote:
Originally posted by Nanook
I wasn't trying to behave like a "math snob" 'cause I'm not.
No intention of my suggesting that was intended...

Quote:
I was only trying to point out that besides an "understanding" of the physics, some serious mathematics is required to actually attempt to solve some of the equations and problems in E-M theory.
I have found it interesting that 2 forum members, in completely unrelated posts have said outright that the usual treatment of Maxwell's work in engineering texts is simplified to the point that some subtle consequences are completely missed.

(a math problem will often be simplified to make it solveable). An aside to that is that for the last 300+ years practical math & engineering have been using "approachable" math that only deals with some small fraction of real-world events. It has only been in the last 30 years or so that mathematical tools have started to be developed that deal with the majority of reality.

dave
__________________
community sites t-linespeakers.org, frugal-horn.com, frugal-phile.com ........ commercial site planet10-HiFi
p10-hifi forum here at diyA
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2007, 06:04 PM   #150
BudP is offline BudP  United States
diyAudio Member
 
BudP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: upper left crust, united snakes
Nanook and Dave

I had a long conversation with Ed West at the Central show yesterday. He is someone whose credentials really do allow "math snobbery", though there is absolutely nothing snobbish about him. He was commenting about just how frustratingly shallow the usual lumped parameter, term limited, mathematical analysis is, for all of the derivations of Maxwell's work.

I had to agree. I am exploring four instances of some rather drastically unsimplified and previously lumped parameter assumptions in transformers, speakers, cables and ground side electrons. Now, I am not a particularly bright or scholarly intellect, so my hope is that these four investigations, that have real world consequences that are not at all subtle in manifestation, will open new layers of exploration for those whose intellects can see far deeper than mine.

That this appears to be happening just delights me no end and I cannot thank everyone who is participating enough. My forays are just scratches on the surface of new and far more subtle tools to come. So, math snobs or not, get your modeling tools brushed up and let's make these derivations messy and elaborate.

Bud
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Electrons on Parade Rodeodave Tubes / Valves 0 25th March 2009 08:16 PM
Electrons on Parade HEADinaJAR Tubes / Valves 0 25th March 2009 11:21 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:21 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2