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Old 22nd August 2007, 10:30 PM   #131
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Default Capacitor trials

Hi Bud, yep I've given it a brief trial (with 0.22uF caps, waaaay too big) but will reserve judgement until I improve my speakers some more. The EnABL treatment worked well on the baffles but the minimalist crossover I'm using at the moment is causing me grief.
I'll try what you suggest, maybe even track down a variable air-spaced cap?

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Mike
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Old 22nd August 2007, 10:33 PM   #132
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Default Another thought...

Just a thought - the popular tweak of earthing the speaker basket - does this create an (albeit unoptimised) electron pool?
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Old 22nd August 2007, 10:50 PM   #133
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Default regarding the speaker mod...

no way to really tell if it is otimum but I have found a significant improvement every time I have done this.
I suppose that we might talk Bud into comparring this mod on a set of drivers on which he has what he feels to be an optimun set of elecron pools installed . So remove the pools and ground the chassis. That would give us a quantifiable comparrison to go by.
I have modified drivers with the nerative to the chassis (which connects to the top plate) and the positive connection to the pole piece. I thought that that set sounded better with both polarities than with just the negative connection alone.
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Old 22nd August 2007, 10:54 PM   #134
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Default Can I have the E fields for Dummies version???

any simple analogy to help a soft brain wrap a little more esily around this Bud? Thanks.
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Old 22nd August 2007, 11:21 PM   #135
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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mikey_audiogeek,

I am not sure if the grounded speaker voice coil return to frame is or is not an Electron Pool as I use the term.

You are certainly accessing another source for electrons and I would think that it has many of the same characteristics that a poured ground plane does. Without doubt {in my mind anyway) the Electron Pools are some sort of sub set of what a proper ground plane brings about.

That the Litz/polypropylene pools enhance and add a particular storage factor to a proper ground plane, seems to be hinted at in my experiments here.

I wonder what a copper flash cladding to the frame, before painting, would do, for the voice coil return, to frame connection's ability, to preserve the information packets coherence? Even an electro tin coat should be of benefit here.

As for the cross over, drop it. Just listen to the full range, or mid range driver as a full range at low levels for a bit. Then start bringing the upper frequency driver in on a cap slope, step by step. Then, when that seems right wind up an air coil and begin snubbing the mid driver down.

The use of EnABL on the baffle changes the overall air load impedance for the drivers, so you have to learn how they are working into this modified load, by some experimentation. I no longer use classical crossover techniques, instead preferring to overlap drivers based upon how EnABLing them and the baffle alters their response to the different air load.

I start off with a match point in phase between the two drivers, arrived at from close mic measurements, a 6mm distance seems to work well. Then I begin modifying both elements in a first order crossover until I have a seamless fit. Then I begin to listen to and measure what the drivers are doing, without the other driver involved and make decisions about higher order filter explorations from that information. I am interested to find out what the measured response is at 1 and 2 meters and how well the two together, are able to present a symphonic stage, with stable instrument placement, and correct decay of notes from various instrument groups.

Takes a while.

Bud
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Old 22nd August 2007, 11:47 PM   #136
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Moray,

You could, if I thought you were a dummy. Absolutely the most useful book on the subject comes from Ralph Morrison and is called "Grounding and Shielding Techniques" fourth edition.

Mr Morrison admits that the topic is so complex that a mathematical solution becomes impossible, in one life time, for just one instance. So he instead provides some conceptual theories and very clear visual presentations for what will become an intuitive understanding of what interactions go on between a mote of one charge value and all of the effects it has on surrounding surfaces and motes of differing charges.

Then, you only have to understand the staccato nature of an electrical field, as it goes about it's progression through changes in signal strength and come to view those changes as ones of vector.

Then a bit of thought given to what the implications are for a static moment where the D Field is open to infinity and the E Field is constrained by dielectrics, and, what sorts of alterations that might bring to a more classical view of "capacitance" and it's attendant "coupling" to an infinite second charged plate.

Stir in the theory that all electrical events in all of reality are controlled by their embedded information "packet" and that stew should do nicely ....

As far as I can comprehend these events, you can indeed cause a low threshold E Field event to occur within a complete circuit, even if the support for these low threshold electron, E Field events, happens on the "ground" side of a "circuit".

Once you have read Mr. Morrison's book, or as much of it as interests you, I am sure you will realize that a ground plane is every bit as active as the circuit above it in potential, and that the two work together to preserve the information packet, as it is transfered and transformed down the chain of audio reproduction gear.

Bud
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Old 23rd August 2007, 12:07 AM   #137
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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Default moray...

1) please email me direct if possible Re:transformers

2) the theory to understanduing Electro -Magenetism is well known and understood, just the mathematics are a little complex. If you understand partial differential equations, vector calculus, matrix mathematics, divegence, curl and a bunch of other vector partial differential equations in 4 dimensions (3 co-ordinates plus "time") then it's pretty simple

3) See Lorraine, Corson And Lorraine "Electromagnetism" for a great book on the subject, THE standard text in Electromagnetism. Also "Div, Curl and All That"(now completely out of print, can't recall the author, but I could go downstairs to the bookshelf), for the basic concepts regarding vector calculus. But before take some 2nd or 3rd year Calculus classes. They'll help

It's pretty "daunting".

Here's the short take on the use of additional dielectrics in Bud's "thingies":

just because the magnet wire has some dielectric, you can alter the E field with more dielectric. And understand that a dielectric is a non conducter of electricity in an E field. But not neccessarily an "insulator". Note that all insulators are dielectric, but act as an electrical (as in charge ) insulator, not an insulator of the E field.

oops, nerdism is setting in, better stop....

Question to all: geek, nerd, dork, what's the difference?
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Old 23rd August 2007, 12:10 AM   #138
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Default Doh! Ground planes, I wonder if they serve food and Beeer????

Sounds like a book that I should read. Will see if I can track a copy down at the Public L or buy a second hand copy. Probably a very good investment and to go along with my copy of Ott. Thanks for the explaination, wish that Matrix download process was readily available today. Was at that workshop I mentioned on Sunday, was thinking about you about 2PM my time. Regards Moray James.
PS will be doing some experiments tonight will let you know what I find out.
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Old 23rd August 2007, 01:27 AM   #139
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Nanook,

Quote:
Note that all insulators are dielectric, but act as an electrical (as in charge ) insulator, not an insulator of the E field.
Exactly! Only another charged plate can insulate from an E Field, hence Faraday.... although, multiple dielectrics can modify the charge accumulation characteristics on another charged plate, beyond those dielectric charge barriers, and, it does appear that they may also modify charge and discharge accumulation on the signaling plate, to no small degree.

Was I supposed to contact you about transformers? It is my field of endeavor. I do have some interesting points to make concerning the derivations from field theory and a question to address concerning bulk electromagnetic discharge behavior. Perhaps the answer is in one of your books?

Bud
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Old 23rd August 2007, 10:41 AM   #140
Nordic is offline Nordic  South Africa
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I think the Litz has the groundplane beaten in volume to surface ratio... could this be a reason for some of the diffirences?
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