Hi all
I'm currently helping to buy a new soundsystem for a small/medium (200/250 capacity) venue. Our budget is around £4250 all in. Primary aims are high sound quality over volume, music played will primarily be disco/soul/house, but the system will also be used as a live PA for bands occasionally. it being a smallish venue we were hoping to put together a reasonably hifi system. The room itself is ideal, well soundproofed, good acoustics.
My current plan is this:
- Build 2 G-subs (dual 18" ported) to cover the low end up to 100/120 hz (£1250)
- Look for 2 decent mid-tops to cover the rest. I would love to have a go at building some, but my limited building experience makes me think "off-the-shelf" would probably work out better (£1750)
-Amps (£1250)
Questions:
1. Is it unrealistic to expect a hifi system with this budget? If so, where would you focus the extra money?
2. Is this the correct choice of sub for this application?
3. What should we be looking for in selecting mid-tops, with the priority being high fidelity replication over ear-blasting volume?
I'd decided that G-subs would be the best bet for low-end considering our budget, as they could give the volume we need for the venue whilst still maintaining reasonably tight/clean bass. I'm at a loss as to what tops to look at. There seems to be too much choice and I don't know where to start!
Many thanks
Jake
I'm currently helping to buy a new soundsystem for a small/medium (200/250 capacity) venue. Our budget is around £4250 all in. Primary aims are high sound quality over volume, music played will primarily be disco/soul/house, but the system will also be used as a live PA for bands occasionally. it being a smallish venue we were hoping to put together a reasonably hifi system. The room itself is ideal, well soundproofed, good acoustics.
My current plan is this:
- Build 2 G-subs (dual 18" ported) to cover the low end up to 100/120 hz (£1250)
- Look for 2 decent mid-tops to cover the rest. I would love to have a go at building some, but my limited building experience makes me think "off-the-shelf" would probably work out better (£1750)
-Amps (£1250)
Questions:
1. Is it unrealistic to expect a hifi system with this budget? If so, where would you focus the extra money?
2. Is this the correct choice of sub for this application?
3. What should we be looking for in selecting mid-tops, with the priority being high fidelity replication over ear-blasting volume?
I'd decided that G-subs would be the best bet for low-end considering our budget, as they could give the volume we need for the venue whilst still maintaining reasonably tight/clean bass. I'm at a loss as to what tops to look at. There seems to be too much choice and I don't know where to start!
Many thanks
Jake
Describe the current system, what speakers, amplifiers, processing and what about it isn't up to snuff.
Ouch. It's possible to put together something in this budget but you will have to lean on DIY and the used market quite bit.
It's not unrealistic to expect good sound quality but at the SPLs this system will operate at I don't know if hi-fi would be the right term to use.
Maybe, it's not a terrible choice.
IMO for any live band/live vocal reproduction you want a 3-way or 2-way with a large 2" exit compression driver, that is going to put pressure on your budget.
And DSP processing is not optional so you will either need a PA processor or amplifiers with that built in.
I agree with Conanski that with your budget you'll be learning hard on used and DIY.
200-250 isn't huge, but does need some power to cover. I've been technical director on several 100-150 seat venues in the US, UK and France. It didn't take a lot to cover these at decent volumes, but that wasn't rock-n-roll, it was theater.
One place I worked that would fit 1000-1200 standing, we had 2 bass bins per side, horn loaded 10" mids and 2" drivers on horns. It would get stinking loud. I think that a short horn loaded 8 or 10" driver with a 1.5" or 2" horn on top of that would work well with your G-Subs.
200-250 isn't huge, but does need some power to cover. I've been technical director on several 100-150 seat venues in the US, UK and France. It didn't take a lot to cover these at decent volumes, but that wasn't rock-n-roll, it was theater.
One place I worked that would fit 1000-1200 standing, we had 2 bass bins per side, horn loaded 10" mids and 2" drivers on horns. It would get stinking loud. I think that a short horn loaded 8 or 10" driver with a 1.5" or 2" horn on top of that would work well with your G-Subs.
Not sure you will save much by building your own subwoofers. The cost of the drivers is about half of the finished equal quality loudspeakers. Throw in the baltic birch plywood and finish don't include labor and you will be a saving about 25%. Buying used should be less than that.
I would look at Electrovoice dual 18s as they are the most underrated good quality loudspeakers on the market and often resell for almost nothing. Repair parts are available if needed.
Same thing for the full range boxes to match.
Amplifiers today are so cheap it is scary, so buy new ones from a real manufacturer, meaning not Mackie, Peavey or similar internet or music store special priced units.
EV, Yamaha, QSC and Ashly all have good quality inexpensive units. Avoid Crown, now made in Mexico with a QC failure rate in the double digits.
Buying new at minimum advertised pricing:
2 EV TX2181 $2,500.00.
2 EV TX2152 $2,600.00.
1 Ashly KLR2000 $630.00.
1 Ashly KLR4000 $920.00.
$6,650.00 all new and probably less if you can negotiate a non MAP price. Almost in your budget! But I don't know the local MAP price difference.
I would look at Electrovoice dual 18s as they are the most underrated good quality loudspeakers on the market and often resell for almost nothing. Repair parts are available if needed.
Same thing for the full range boxes to match.
Amplifiers today are so cheap it is scary, so buy new ones from a real manufacturer, meaning not Mackie, Peavey or similar internet or music store special priced units.
EV, Yamaha, QSC and Ashly all have good quality inexpensive units. Avoid Crown, now made in Mexico with a QC failure rate in the double digits.
Buying new at minimum advertised pricing:
2 EV TX2181 $2,500.00.
2 EV TX2152 $2,600.00.
1 Ashly KLR2000 $630.00.
1 Ashly KLR4000 $920.00.
$6,650.00 all new and probably less if you can negotiate a non MAP price. Almost in your budget! But I don't know the local MAP price difference.
Does that "all in budget" includes a mixer, mics and cables for those occasional live bands ?
A competent sound engineer to set it up can also make all the difference. I recently helped for a set of concerts taking place in a similar setup (about 200 persons). The soundsystem, iirc, was four EV ELX118 subs and four EV ELX112 tops. It was quite ok with the first three concerts. For the fourth concert, the visiting band had its own sound guy (with his own mixer). Two hours later, he had completely transformed the sound coming out of the system. He let us his EQ settings but we never could really emulate what he got out of the system.
A competent sound engineer to set it up can also make all the difference. I recently helped for a set of concerts taking place in a similar setup (about 200 persons). The soundsystem, iirc, was four EV ELX118 subs and four EV ELX112 tops. It was quite ok with the first three concerts. For the fourth concert, the visiting band had its own sound guy (with his own mixer). Two hours later, he had completely transformed the sound coming out of the system. He let us his EQ settings but we never could really emulate what he got out of the system.
Thanks all for your responses.
The live band application is less important, if we assume this system will be used primarily for 200 capacity clubnights playing disco, soul and house.
I had decided to build some subs, because I'd been told by multiple people that building mid-tops wouldn't be worth it for the money I'd spend, but that you can save a fair bit by building G-subs instead of buying the equivalent. Thanks for pointing out those EV's Simon, I will have a look at those, and consider other used subs as well as DIY.
In terms of 'setting up' a soundystem to get the most out of it, would you recommend trying to extend the budget to include a good quality crossover/dsp as well? Or would this money be better spend going into the speakers themselves?
Essentially the main problem we have is how to divvy up the money we have between the different components of the system
I've heard some lovely sounding DIY 15" dual-reflex boxes. Would these on their own cover the low end or would it be better to stick with 18?
The live band application is less important, if we assume this system will be used primarily for 200 capacity clubnights playing disco, soul and house.
I had decided to build some subs, because I'd been told by multiple people that building mid-tops wouldn't be worth it for the money I'd spend, but that you can save a fair bit by building G-subs instead of buying the equivalent. Thanks for pointing out those EV's Simon, I will have a look at those, and consider other used subs as well as DIY.
In terms of 'setting up' a soundystem to get the most out of it, would you recommend trying to extend the budget to include a good quality crossover/dsp as well? Or would this money be better spend going into the speakers themselves?
Essentially the main problem we have is how to divvy up the money we have between the different components of the system
I've heard some lovely sounding DIY 15" dual-reflex boxes. Would these on their own cover the low end or would it be better to stick with 18?
G-Subs for the bottom end is a good solution. For the tops, Google SMT212 and look at the images. There's threads on Speakerplans and Freespeakerplans about them too.
To keep things in budget, for the amps, have a look for older power amps such as the C-Audio SR series, Citronic PPX (900, 1200 and 1600, NOT the 1300, 2000 and 2400 as they had the hybrid module in them and those boards are rarer than rocking horse poo). And you should be able to pick up a 2nd hand DCX for about £150
To keep things in budget, for the amps, have a look for older power amps such as the C-Audio SR series, Citronic PPX (900, 1200 and 1600, NOT the 1300, 2000 and 2400 as they had the hybrid module in them and those boards are rarer than rocking horse poo). And you should be able to pick up a 2nd hand DCX for about £150
DJs typically stress a PA system more than a live band.
When it comes to speakers the drivers used are easily the most important part. Subs are typically just a box and drivers so it is easy enough to match or exceed the performance of better quality boxes. Tops on the other hand are much more complicated, they typically include a passive crossover which is technically challenging to do right, but that can be circumvented somewhat if each driver is separately powered and processed with rack gear, only downside to that is it requires more amplifier and processing channels but for a 3 way system that is still only 6 channels for full stereo.
You need DSP processing to get the most out of any speaker system and even more importantly to protect it, so as I said before this component is not optional you either need a stand alone processor or you need amplifiers with processing built-in.
Once you decide what speaker systems you are going to build buy the very best drivers available for them, do not skimp here. If that means you have less to spend on amplifiers so be it, upgrade those later if performance is lacking.
When it comes to reflex subs there is no replacement for displacement so bigger is better. If you were to select a different design then it is possible a smaller driver would be a good choice.
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Hi Jake,
If you're around Sheffield, it might be worth you getting in touch. I'm happy to bring some gear to demo.
I think it will be difficult (but not impossible) to get a gold HiFi sound with your budget. You'll need to DIY the speakers and possibly get 2nd hand drivers to keep the costs down.
Do you have any woodworking tools?
How skilled are you at woodworking?
Chris
If you're around Sheffield, it might be worth you getting in touch. I'm happy to bring some gear to demo.
I think it will be difficult (but not impossible) to get a gold HiFi sound with your budget. You'll need to DIY the speakers and possibly get 2nd hand drivers to keep the costs down.
Do you have any woodworking tools?
How skilled are you at woodworking?
Chris
It's funny you posted the orbit4's bob4, I'd already had these recommended by several people and I think this would be a great choice, primarily because a pair wouldn't set me back a horrendous amount.
Thanks again for your suggestions, this has been really helpful. I think I am probably going in even more blind than I initially though so I've been reevaluating the plan.
I think my dream of a perfect hifi PA was probably unrealistic and a bit ambitious considering my budget and expertise/experience (both limited). Having gone through the suggestions here alongside conversations with others in the past week, I think it would be better to try to get together a small system which I can build on over time. Hopefully it will still sound fairly good for the music we're playing
Current plan:
2x orbit 4's (£1000)
Powered by: 2 used amps (have seen a fair number of QSC amps going on ebay, rmx2450 and 850 seem like a safe option? £300-400)
dbx driverack PA2 (£340).
DIY G-sub, just one to start with. PD184 drivers. MDF, as it will sit in the venue most of the time, and would be the cheapest option (£600-700 including drivers). Slightly overestimated the cost due to having to buy some extra tools I don't currently have
sub amp (£300)
Regarding amps, the behringer EP4000 is an attractive price for the power, but I'm aware of the reputation they have in the pro sound world, do you think this would be a safe punt? Below £300 and could power the G-sub in bridge mode.
This would bring the total to £2500-3000, and could probably handle a 200-capacity venue at a stretch?
I'm still in the early planning stages, so would be very interested to hear thoughts on this setup.
[Chris: Yes I am in Sheffield! And no, i have no prior experience in woodworking but do have friends nearby who have built speakers before, and access to a tablesaw and carpentry expertise. I feel fairly confident in having a crack at a sub, I've been itching to build a speaker for a while so am going to take it on whether it's a good idea or not... we'll see how it goes!]
Thanks again for your suggestions, this has been really helpful. I think I am probably going in even more blind than I initially though so I've been reevaluating the plan.
I think my dream of a perfect hifi PA was probably unrealistic and a bit ambitious considering my budget and expertise/experience (both limited). Having gone through the suggestions here alongside conversations with others in the past week, I think it would be better to try to get together a small system which I can build on over time. Hopefully it will still sound fairly good for the music we're playing
Current plan:
2x orbit 4's (£1000)
Powered by: 2 used amps (have seen a fair number of QSC amps going on ebay, rmx2450 and 850 seem like a safe option? £300-400)
dbx driverack PA2 (£340).
DIY G-sub, just one to start with. PD184 drivers. MDF, as it will sit in the venue most of the time, and would be the cheapest option (£600-700 including drivers). Slightly overestimated the cost due to having to buy some extra tools I don't currently have
sub amp (£300)
Regarding amps, the behringer EP4000 is an attractive price for the power, but I'm aware of the reputation they have in the pro sound world, do you think this would be a safe punt? Below £300 and could power the G-sub in bridge mode.
This would bring the total to £2500-3000, and could probably handle a 200-capacity venue at a stretch?
I'm still in the early planning stages, so would be very interested to hear thoughts on this setup.
[Chris: Yes I am in Sheffield! And no, i have no prior experience in woodworking but do have friends nearby who have built speakers before, and access to a tablesaw and carpentry expertise. I feel fairly confident in having a crack at a sub, I've been itching to build a speaker for a while so am going to take it on whether it's a good idea or not... we'll see how it goes!]
Hello, if it is installed sound, the weight of the subs does not matter. Why not diy-build a big (almost)-no-compromise-horn for a single 18" driver? A horn, that gives very high efficiency plus reasonable low end - so you need only one. Use a good driver. Including the wood you could get away with as low as 800 great or not so great british Pounds. PLUS: due to high efficiency you save amp power - you could maybe use a bridgeable amp that gives 1 x approx. 1400W, bridged into 8 Ohms.
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