The other crossover turns out to be worse.
The 16R resistor on that one reads as open, and one of the leads was broken off at the mounting tab. Black painted board concealed the very burnt wood under it.
Both of the protection devices on the secondary of this one have blown out.
Also, the 3.0mh inductor has been Way Too Hot and needs replaced. Fun fun fun.
The 16R resistor on that one reads as open, and one of the leads was broken off at the mounting tab. Black painted board concealed the very burnt wood under it.
Both of the protection devices on the secondary of this one have blown out.
Also, the 3.0mh inductor has been Way Too Hot and needs replaced. Fun fun fun.
Found more resistors out of spec so what the heck all resistors will be swapped out. I'll replace the 10% 16-ohm 20w with 5% 33ohm 25w in parallel. The black crossover board has a pair of 8-ohm 20w in parallel on the transformer secondary and one of them is an open circuit. On the midrange side where there's a 12ohm in parallel with an 8 ohm on the black one that is reading 3.something ohms which is certainly not right.
So, all resistors got to go. getting 25w xicons from mouser along with the 5w zeners.
Wonderful.
So, all resistors got to go. getting 25w xicons from mouser along with the 5w zeners.
Wonderful.
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Sounds like they were used hard... Let me know if there is any other way I can help out. Very interesting way they have done the crossover.
I've said it before, imo they aren't bad sounding speakers. In fact, it is a good feeling to be using gear that wasn't made on the other side of the planet, even if the company has sadly ended. I really like how they aren't that deep of a speaker, so you can easily get through doors etc.
I've said it before, imo they aren't bad sounding speakers. In fact, it is a good feeling to be using gear that wasn't made on the other side of the planet, even if the company has sadly ended. I really like how they aren't that deep of a speaker, so you can easily get through doors etc.
Used hard and/or exposed to a failing amplifier.
What's not shown in the crossover diagram is how the switching in the input jacks works for biamping. I can add that I guess.
Well, the 1.75mh coils are ok, and the transformers are ok, and the foil caps are ok . . . .
Really one of the 3.0mh coils is good, the other one is baked. I'm waiting for my pro audio contractor friend to show up online so i can ask if he has some coils on hand. it will cost a bit over $50 to get a pair of matching 3.0mh 14ga coils from ERSE and the website indicates that they might be backordered.
Resistors aren't expensive. I don't think they're really scrap, just, there's plenty wrong with them.
As soon as i get around to it i will disassemble one of the midrange horns. Have to figure out which wrench i need to disconnect that assembly from the roof of the cabinet.
I can't manage to un-punch one of the domes and haven't fully un-punched the other and i have some peel-n-seel i want to apply to the inside of the midrange horns.
Peel & Seal... Have you used this stuff before as an acoustic dampener? You like it? I know this is a bit off topic but since you mention it just wondering
I have not but i keep meaning to? It's popular in car audio for people who are too cheap to buy dynamat.
It's the same kind of butyl goo with foil backing as dynamat. Since it is intented for roofing, it's stinkier, so it's best to tape over the edges. i have some aluminum foil tape i will be using for that.
Peel-n-Seal is sold at Lowes for about $16/roll in the roofing department. There are other similar-looking products which are bituminous and not a good choice for damping.
A pic I found of the hurricanes. These have been modified with some larger subs, and they have removed the single steel grill that used to cover the lower half of the cabinet.
VIRTUAL DJ SOFTWARE - Old School Hurricane brand DJ Speakers made in USA
VIRTUAL DJ SOFTWARE - Old School Hurricane brand DJ Speakers made in USA
Got my shipments from madisound and mouser, done the soldering part of rebuilding the crossovers.
Madisound's I-core 3mh 16ga choke is probably superior to the original EI-core. Wire seems bigger. I bought two so my crossovers match.
Erse makes a 14ga that is competitively priced but was out of stock.
I will post a refresh BOM maybe tomorrow. I will also add the input jacks to the schematic so that it makes more sense.
Almost have a mid horn pulled. Gigantic pain in the posterior. A very small locking plier seems to be required. I will post photos and details eventually.
Madisound's I-core 3mh 16ga choke is probably superior to the original EI-core. Wire seems bigger. I bought two so my crossovers match.
Erse makes a 14ga that is competitively priced but was out of stock.
I will post a refresh BOM maybe tomorrow. I will also add the input jacks to the schematic so that it makes more sense.
Almost have a mid horn pulled. Gigantic pain in the posterior. A very small locking plier seems to be required. I will post photos and details eventually.
Attachments
1) don´t think Hi Fi here, these are *large* Live PA boxes, designed for a very specific goal: LOUD!!!! , anything else takes a second seat here.
2) the correct tweeters there are Piezos, and an effort has been made to improve what they usually offer.:
a) since they are intrinsecally very high (and varying) impedance, don´t think "watts" but "volts" instead. Describes situation better.
b) see that it has a step-up transformer: T1, labelled "102".
It´s a common trick to make Piezos real loud.
Just last week I saw somebody using a 3:1 audio transformer, of course wound for higher frequency duty so it was actually quite small, like this one, and his add-on piezo unit measured 102dB@2.83V RMS , 1 meter, which is impressive for such a cheap solution.
If you use real drivers and horns, fine, but you´ll need a proper X-Over too .... probably nullifying the "0 $" price
3) the HF side includes protection: 2 x 20V 5W Zeners in reverse series, and which add a 4 ohm 20W resistor in parallel with tweeters on peaks.
By then Bud Ross had 25/30 years on Live and MI sound under his belt, he was no fool and designed a practical low cost product which performed well, by 80´s standards, no doubt many performing bands as you mentioned used these.
I see them as a poor man´s version of Clair Brothers S4 all-in-one system:
which was THE PA cabinet way back then, used by *everybody*
Obviously yours were overdriven by clipping amps, which killed tweeters, damaged crossover, etc, but if separated and biamplified (say 300W into 4 ohms for Bass and 50/80W for mid/highs with a limiter setup to NEVER clip) they will work quite well.
And if highs never clip, Piezos are quite acceptable, now when you have clipping they can be UGLY, so just don´t clip.
The woofers are CTS (early Eminence) and should be good for about 150W RMS each, which is not bad, considering the intended use (unless you want to go on Tour with Slaughterchrist, that is )
In a nutshell, getting new Piezos, replacing a couple passive comonents and Zeners and biamping should turn them into something quite usable for headbanging.
And even Disco level Diana Ross
2) the correct tweeters there are Piezos, and an effort has been made to improve what they usually offer.:
a) since they are intrinsecally very high (and varying) impedance, don´t think "watts" but "volts" instead. Describes situation better.
b) see that it has a step-up transformer: T1, labelled "102".
It´s a common trick to make Piezos real loud.
Just last week I saw somebody using a 3:1 audio transformer, of course wound for higher frequency duty so it was actually quite small, like this one, and his add-on piezo unit measured 102dB@2.83V RMS , 1 meter, which is impressive for such a cheap solution.
If you use real drivers and horns, fine, but you´ll need a proper X-Over too .... probably nullifying the "0 $" price
3) the HF side includes protection: 2 x 20V 5W Zeners in reverse series, and which add a 4 ohm 20W resistor in parallel with tweeters on peaks.
By then Bud Ross had 25/30 years on Live and MI sound under his belt, he was no fool and designed a practical low cost product which performed well, by 80´s standards, no doubt many performing bands as you mentioned used these.
I see them as a poor man´s version of Clair Brothers S4 all-in-one system:
which was THE PA cabinet way back then, used by *everybody*
Obviously yours were overdriven by clipping amps, which killed tweeters, damaged crossover, etc, but if separated and biamplified (say 300W into 4 ohms for Bass and 50/80W for mid/highs with a limiter setup to NEVER clip) they will work quite well.
And if highs never clip, Piezos are quite acceptable, now when you have clipping they can be UGLY, so just don´t clip.
The woofers are CTS (early Eminence) and should be good for about 150W RMS each, which is not bad, considering the intended use (unless you want to go on Tour with Slaughterchrist, that is
)In a nutshell, getting new Piezos, replacing a couple passive comonents and Zeners and biamping should turn them into something quite usable for headbanging.
And even Disco level Diana Ross
Alright, crossover refresh parts list. For one pair of HD218-CD.
From mouser -- these parts are cheap, so replace them all. Maybe double up on zeners just in case?
863-1N5357BG Zener Diodes 20V 5W 4
280-CR25-33-RC Through Hole Wirewound Resistors - 33ohms 5% 25W 4
280-CR25-8.2-RC Through Hole Wirewound Resistors - 8.2ohms 5% 25W 6
280-CR25-12-RC Through Hole Wirewound Resistors - 12ohms 5% 25W 2
From Madisound:
m200 Bennic 200 mfd Non-Polar Electrolytic Capacitor 100V 2
m50 Bennic 50 mfd Non-Polar Electrolytic Capacitor 100V 2
If the 3mh is cooked:
sl3.0 Steel Laminate 3.0 mH 15 AWG Inductor
-OR- ERSE ESQ55-14-3000 3.0mH 14ga ESQ - Super Q Coil.
.124Ω - 600w
Both of these are lower DCR than the original EI core so you may wish to replace in pairs (or hit me up for the good one i pulled)
If you don't have to replace a coil you can refresh both crossovers for less than about $40 including shipping. The Madisound coils were $16ea and the ERSE is $20.
From mouser -- these parts are cheap, so replace them all. Maybe double up on zeners just in case?
863-1N5357BG Zener Diodes 20V 5W 4
280-CR25-33-RC Through Hole Wirewound Resistors - 33ohms 5% 25W 4
280-CR25-8.2-RC Through Hole Wirewound Resistors - 8.2ohms 5% 25W 6
280-CR25-12-RC Through Hole Wirewound Resistors - 12ohms 5% 25W 2
From Madisound:
m200 Bennic 200 mfd Non-Polar Electrolytic Capacitor 100V 2
m50 Bennic 50 mfd Non-Polar Electrolytic Capacitor 100V 2
If the 3mh is cooked:
sl3.0 Steel Laminate 3.0 mH 15 AWG Inductor
-OR- ERSE ESQ55-14-3000 3.0mH 14ga ESQ - Super Q Coil.
.124Ω - 600w
Both of these are lower DCR than the original EI core so you may wish to replace in pairs (or hit me up for the good one i pulled)
If you don't have to replace a coil you can refresh both crossovers for less than about $40 including shipping. The Madisound coils were $16ea and the ERSE is $20.
Obviously yours were overdriven by clipping amps, which killed tweeters, damaged crossover, etc, but if separated and biamplified (say 300W into 4 ohms for Bass and 50/80W for mid/highs with a limiter setup to NEVER clip) they will work quite well.
And if highs never clip, Piezos are quite acceptable, now when you have clipping they can be UGLY, so just don´t clip.
The woofers are CTS (early Eminence) and should be good for about 150W RMS each, which is not bad, considering the intended use (unless you want to go on Tour with Slaughterchrist, that is
In a nutshell, getting new Piezos, replacing a couple passive comonents and Zeners and biamping should turn them into something quite usable for headbanging.
And even Disco level Diana Ross
The vague plan at the moment is eventually biamping them as silly home theater bass enhancement / massive overkill bass practice rig - Crown DC-300A (re-capped and tuned up) doing the bass and an Onkyo M-something 125w/c doing mid/hi. Plus whatever else i want to do to annoy the neighbors.
The tweeter horn cutouts have been enlarged and the screw holes are stripped out so i will probably be working on that today or tomorrow so i can actually mount the cheap knockoff piezos. I might go buy real motorola powerline tweeters at some date if i get enough use out of these. Or go with some other tweeter configuration. But yeah it's understood that these aren't high fidelity.
Pics of the midrange have been added to the shared gallery.
The tophat is siliconed to the basket of the driver. Don't remove it without first desoldering the wires from the hookup terminal on the tophat and pushing them inside because there is NO slack and otherwise you'll break the terminal board right off the driver and risk tearing the voice coil leads right out. I hope my repair was successful. Ohm meter says I'm good. We'll see.
Getting the mid-horn out requires either a small child willing to stand inside the cabinet and do it for you, or a small pair of locking pliers attached to the head of the bolt (visible from below) so that you can use a 1/4" socket wrench and 7/16" socket to remove the nut (not visible). Two per horn. The bolts are installed in clips that keep them from coming out of the horn flange but do not keep them from turning. Might have been nice if they'd used a big T-bolt that didn't require the locking pliers.
The horn plastic is somewhat brittle. I repaired some small cracks next to one of the bolt holes with superglue, but it might have been better to mix up a dollop of jb-weld plastic bonder. Be gentle with them.
Oh, and the midrange driver is glued and bolted to the horn flange. When i reassemble i will just glue the torn paperboard gasket back to itself. sigh.
The tophat is siliconed to the basket of the driver. Don't remove it without first desoldering the wires from the hookup terminal on the tophat and pushing them inside because there is NO slack and otherwise you'll break the terminal board right off the driver and risk tearing the voice coil leads right out. I hope my repair was successful. Ohm meter says I'm good. We'll see.
Getting the mid-horn out requires either a small child willing to stand inside the cabinet and do it for you, or a small pair of locking pliers attached to the head of the bolt (visible from below) so that you can use a 1/4" socket wrench and 7/16" socket to remove the nut (not visible). Two per horn. The bolts are installed in clips that keep them from coming out of the horn flange but do not keep them from turning. Might have been nice if they'd used a big T-bolt that didn't require the locking pliers.
The horn plastic is somewhat brittle. I repaired some small cracks next to one of the bolt holes with superglue, but it might have been better to mix up a dollop of jb-weld plastic bonder. Be gentle with them.
Oh, and the midrange driver is glued and bolted to the horn flange. When i reassemble i will just glue the torn paperboard gasket back to itself. sigh.
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Exciting news!
I have been waiting for your update. I see you haven't had much luck yet pulling out that poked in dome. Looking through your pictures I wondered at first what that metallic stuff was on the outside of the horn. Right... right... you did mention about that anti-vibration stuff you were going to try on it. Hope it works well for you.
That mid-range is an Eminence speaker, but unfortunately I can't make out enough of the code to find anything useful on Google about it. Considering the fun you have had with yours, I think for now mine aren't going to be touched any time soon.
Lots of work going into your crossover rebuild. Personally I think the crossover design is ingenious, simple and effective. I do expect you are right about the old vs new coils.
I am saddened at how much abuse your set has been given. I do hope you are able to recreate a port for your tweeters to slip into easily enough, and maintain the look and response of the system.
I drive my set with a Lab Gruppen PLM 20K44, and am quite pleased with both the volume and quality of sound I can get out of these old beasts. Can't wait for your next update.
I have been waiting for your update. I see you haven't had much luck yet pulling out that poked in dome. Looking through your pictures I wondered at first what that metallic stuff was on the outside of the horn. Right... right... you did mention about that anti-vibration stuff you were going to try on it. Hope it works well for you.
That mid-range is an Eminence speaker, but unfortunately I can't make out enough of the code to find anything useful on Google about it. Considering the fun you have had with yours, I think for now mine aren't going to be touched any time soon.
Lots of work going into your crossover rebuild. Personally I think the crossover design is ingenious, simple and effective. I do expect you are right about the old vs new coils.
I am saddened at how much abuse your set has been given. I do hope you are able to recreate a port for your tweeters to slip into easily enough, and maintain the look and response of the system.
I drive my set with a Lab Gruppen PLM 20K44, and am quite pleased with both the volume and quality of sound I can get out of these old beasts. Can't wait for your next update.
The domes on the midranges are a doped fabric, and i think mine have been painted black as well but i am not certain. I should be able to un-dent them easily with a vacuum and then perhaps i can re-set their default position by warming them briefly with a hair dryer?
There's a strong resemblance to the Eminence Beta-8CX, but that's an 8 ohm speaker. I haven't come across an Eminence 4-ohm 8" midrange yet.
It's not so much work to repair the crossovers. It is disappointing that so many of the resistors and 3 out of 4 protection zeners were blown, but it's reasonably simple to just replace the lot of them. It was less than $20 including shipping for all of those parts. The capacitors were replaced on principle - 30-year-old electrolytics are presumed to be degraded.
Having to replace the 3mh coils, eh, yeah, that was a bummer from a financial perspective.
It was an hour or so of soldering and hot glue once the parts were here.
Oh, those old speakers are FUN!!!!
And great to listen to Heavy Metal and similar stuff.
Or Disco Music.
They *scream* 70/80´s live speakers, .... so play 70/80´s music through them
The numbers scribbled on things indicate that these were built in December of 1987.
We were told that this band played more than a few gigs on them: Slaughterchrist - Feast of Consumption (YouTube)
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Wait, the scribble on the back of the xover board was 10/12/87 so october 1987.
Anyway. Those fabric domes - which seem to be breathable - don't want to be un-dented.
Applying some heat and then the vacuum hose may have helped reform the one.
Reinstalled the crossovers and one pair of tweeters tonight, and reassembled one midrange assembly. Not going to monkey with it until the silicone on the hat cures.
I want to pull the other mid horn so i can damp the horn and un-dent the dome before fully reassembling and it kinda helps to have both woofers out when removing the mid horn.
I ran out of the material i was using to shim the tweeter cutouts and had to go buy more of it. So the new tweeters aren't into the other cabinet yet.
Things are coming together reasonably well though.
Anyway. Those fabric domes - which seem to be breathable - don't want to be un-dented.
Applying some heat and then the vacuum hose may have helped reform the one.
Reinstalled the crossovers and one pair of tweeters tonight, and reassembled one midrange assembly. Not going to monkey with it until the silicone on the hat cures.
I want to pull the other mid horn so i can damp the horn and un-dent the dome before fully reassembling and it kinda helps to have both woofers out when removing the mid horn.
I ran out of the material i was using to shim the tweeter cutouts and had to go buy more of it. So the new tweeters aren't into the other cabinet yet.
Things are coming together reasonably well though.
Had a lot of distractions but did manage to get one of them fully reassembled over the weekend and tried it out with a crown mt-600 bridged into it. I'm replacing all the lag screws with 5/16 t-nuts and bolts, so, there's a little labor and cleanup involved. A lot of the lag screws were very loose.
Note, also, the front baffle is only stapled on. go figure.
It is in fact capable of being very loud. The bass quantity available surely exceeds my livingroom's capacity.
I think the damping on the mid horn did help - if you rap on the plastic it's a much higher tone now. More tap less clonk. You could probably get away with just damping the two biggest facets, as i understand this kind of thing, and they would only need about 3/4 coverage each. But eh. Why not.
I want to extract and disassemble the midrange of the other one so that i can un-punch the dome and damp the horn. getting it out and back in again is a big enough pain that i have been distracted by other things.
Note, also, the front baffle is only stapled on. go figure.
It is in fact capable of being very loud. The bass quantity available surely exceeds my livingroom's capacity.
I think the damping on the mid horn did help - if you rap on the plastic it's a much higher tone now. More tap less clonk. You could probably get away with just damping the two biggest facets, as i understand this kind of thing, and they would only need about 3/4 coverage each. But eh. Why not.
I want to extract and disassemble the midrange of the other one so that i can un-punch the dome and damp the horn. getting it out and back in again is a big enough pain that i have been distracted by other things.
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Well, so far things are going smoothly
As of
Fact is, Eminence is a *huge* OEM manufacturer on demand, they build whatever Customer orders, which can be *anything*
Besides that, and I personally think is an "extra", definitely not the main money maker at all, I guess they take a hard long look at their most popular products and make a few extra for "over the counter" sales.
Legends in my view are "civilian versions" of what they make by the truckload for Fender, Peavey, Crate, and 1000 others, and the "Greek" ones (Alpha/Beta/Gamma/Delta) an end user version of whatbthey make in bulk for PA manufacturers.
So if you look at your midrange speakers and find resemblance to "User" version Beta-something they probably *are* from that series.
On customer orders they could have been made in 2/4/8/16/32 ohm, painted pink or glitter metallic blue or whatever, using a dozen different cones, a dozen voice coils and so on, so don´t discard them just because they don´t *exactly* match one of the retail versions.
Plus: IF Eminence supplied the woofers, why not the rest?
As of
I think you already have: *these*
Fact is, Eminence is a *huge* OEM manufacturer on demand, they build whatever Customer orders, which can be *anything*
Besides that, and I personally think is an "extra", definitely not the main money maker at all, I guess they take a hard long look at their most popular products and make a few extra for "over the counter" sales.
Legends in my view are "civilian versions" of what they make by the truckload for Fender, Peavey, Crate, and 1000 others, and the "Greek" ones (Alpha/Beta/Gamma/Delta) an end user version of whatbthey make in bulk for PA manufacturers.
So if you look at your midrange speakers and find resemblance to "User" version Beta-something they probably *are* from that series.
On customer orders they could have been made in 2/4/8/16/32 ohm, painted pink or glitter metallic blue or whatever, using a dozen different cones, a dozen voice coils and so on, so don´t discard them just because they don´t *exactly* match one of the retail versions.
Plus: IF Eminence supplied the woofers, why not the rest?
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