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Project: the best PA tops using commonly available components
Project: the best PA tops using commonly available components
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Old 17th January 2017, 05:09 PM   #21
turk 182 is offline turk 182  Canada
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when trying to squeeze every last bit of spl and performance out of a rig, sorry i guess i just have an issue with turning sound into heat "a la passive pad"
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Old 17th January 2017, 06:12 PM   #22
nikmartin is offline nikmartin
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Originally Posted by turk 182 View Post
passive padding or active x-over.... i'd go active and adjust the gain to the horn a resistive pad eats watts and produces heat inside the cab.
Yeah, I already have a DCX2496, so going active is an option, but was leaning towards the simplicity of fixed crossovers in the cabinets. There is something to be said for biamping though for sure. 4 pole speakons and cables make that a lot easier than it used to be.
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Old 17th January 2017, 06:23 PM   #23
jarvissound is offline jarvissound  United States
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Originally Posted by nikmartin View Post
Yeah, I already have a DCX2496, so going active is an option, but was leaning towards the simplicity of fixed crossovers in the cabinets. There is something to be said for biamping though for sure. 4 pole speakons and cables make that a lot easier than it used to be.
Yes I'd agree....DSP and Amps are so cheap these days that it hardly seems worth messing with passive. You can also put a tiny amp on the highs and be fine. Spend your money on current for the lows.

I do want to reiterate though.....The absolute cheapest way to do this is to buy a big amp and a pile of Chinese passive boxes. We used to rent DJ's a QSC RMX2450 and 8-American DJ 15" and a horn and they always came back smiling. Eight of those things on that amp will absolutely rip your head off, and you don't really need sub because you've got 8-15's. Our dealer cost on that setup was less than $1500 IIRC. One of those iNuke 6000 4-channels would work great with that type of setup.

B
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Old 17th January 2017, 06:58 PM   #24
nikmartin is offline nikmartin
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Originally Posted by jarvissound View Post
I do want to reiterate though.....The absolute cheapest way to do this is to buy a big amp and a pile of Chinese passive boxes. We used to rent DJ's a QSC RMX2450 and 8-American DJ 15" and a horn and they always came back smiling. Eight of those things on that amp will absolutely rip your head off, and you don't really need sub because you've got 8-15's. Our dealer cost on that setup was less than $1500 IIRC. One of those iNuke 6000 4-channels would work great with that type of setup.

B
Well, I'm not a SQ queen, BUT I'm not convinced I can't at least match the quality of a QSC K12 or EV higher end powered box with a DIY <$300 cabinet. I just built 2 PAL12 subs and they will absolutely blow the doors off of a sub like a Yorkie LS801 for 1/2 the price. I'm thinking I can do the same with tops. I'd like to hit a price point around $300/cabinet with quality up around the K12 or higher end EV or Yamaha poletop actives. I mainly do weddings and corporate so the looks and sound are both important factors, not just SPL.

Absolute cheapest isn't the ultimate goal, but a balance between chinese crap and top end portable. I also like to DIY

Possible?
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Old 17th January 2017, 07:07 PM   #25
jarvissound is offline jarvissound  United States
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Originally Posted by nikmartin View Post
Well, I'm not a SQ queen, BUT I'm not convinced I can't at least match the quality of a QSC K12 or EV higher end powered box with a DIY <$300 cabinet. I just built 2 PAL12 subs and they will absolutely blow the doors off of a sub like a Yorkie LS801 for 1/2 the price. I'm thinking I can do the same with tops. I'd like to hit a price point around $300/cabinet with quality up around the K12 or higher end EV or Yamaha poletop actives. I mainly do weddings and corporate so the looks and sound are both important factors, not just SPL.

Absolute cheapest isn't the ultimate goal, but a balance between chinese crap and top end portable. I also like to DIY

Possible?
OK I'm with you....If you want to get in the ballpark of the K12, which I'm familiar with, you are going to have to probably go active x-over and EQ, and also you will need to pay special attention to your crossover frequency and waveguide combination. Those boxes pay special attention to directivity through the crossover region. I would consider the SEOS-12 waveguide, which I think are pretty great....The Pyle/JBL unit is pretty good as well(and super cheap). You can still stick to the Dayton drivers. You are looking at a crossover of 1.5kHz or below....the lower the better. The Meyer UPA-1P crosses over at 1K.
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Old 19th January 2017, 02:35 AM   #26
Cuppa Joe is offline Cuppa Joe  United States
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[QUOTE=jarvissound;4953398]It won't magically sound better but it will buy you a lot more headroom. The problem here isn't sound quality...it is headroom. In any case, with all due respect, why are you bringing up $4k apiece boxes when we are clearly on a beer budget here? I could tell the OP to go buy a set of Meyer CQ-1's and I'm sure everyone would love it, except he'd be broke.

I never suggested that the OP buy into unaffordable gear, the point was to compare a well-engineered arc array with the shortcomings of the proposed project. Then I offered practical suggestions to minimize perceptible comb filtering. I'm sorry that you perceive my input as lacking substance or intelligence. Good luck with your designs.
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Old 19th January 2017, 04:09 AM   #27
jarvissound is offline jarvissound  United States
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[QUOTE=Cuppa Joe;4956714]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvissound View Post
It won't magically sound better but it will buy you a lot more headroom. The problem here isn't sound quality...it is headroom. In any case, with all due respect, why are you bringing up $4k apiece boxes when we are clearly on a beer budget here? I could tell the OP to go buy a set of Meyer CQ-1's and I'm sure everyone would love it, except he'd be broke.

I never suggested that the OP buy into unaffordable gear, the point was to compare a well-engineered arc array with the shortcomings of the proposed project. Then I offered practical suggestions to minimize perceptible comb filtering. I'm sorry that you perceive my input as lacking substance or intelligence. Good luck with your designs.
Fair enough....Didn't mean to assert that you lack intelligence, only to assert that your aims were outside of this budget realm.
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Old 19th January 2017, 04:43 AM   #28
Cuppa Joe is offline Cuppa Joe  United States
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One of the suggestions was meant to convey the idea of using whatever affordable components are chosen in a vertical arrangement, where the ear is far less sensitive to combing. The Ramsdell systems were mentioned as visual examples only. The other suggestion was meant to minimize destructive interference in the horizontal. For instance, if you have 3 splayed tops per side, the 2 outside boxes could carry vocals & drums, while the center on each side could cover all else. A beer budget system doesn't have to sound that way....

Last edited by Cuppa Joe; 19th January 2017 at 04:45 AM.
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Old 19th January 2017, 10:32 AM   #29
turk 182 is offline turk 182  Canada
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we should be united by a common interest not divided...
jarvissound for all we know a bunch of cheap boxes could break the budget.

and if nikmartin is trying to make his target of 300 a box, components alone, no labour factored in means that it's less than beer budget, it's more like stale flat draft.
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Old 19th January 2017, 01:15 PM   #30
nikmartin is offline nikmartin
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Originally Posted by turk 182 View Post
and if nikmartin is trying to make his target of 300 a box, components alone, no labour factored in means that it's less than beer budget, it's more like stale flat draft.
In this exercise I'm looking at landed component cost only, as anyone that built this project will have their own hourly rate for DIY to figure in. For me, if it can been refined to meet the project goals, my rate + component cost should still far surpass the plastibox quality of the mid-range line from each manufacturer (QSC, Yamaha, Peavy, Alto, etc)
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