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Project: the best PA tops using commonly available components
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Old 17th January 2017, 11:55 AM   #11
djtimmy77 is offline djtimmy77
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Might be a coincidence but the Dayton drivers mentioned above just went on sale this week at PE. Almost 20% off. I ordered a couple based on the recommendation above.
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Old 17th January 2017, 12:23 PM   #12
nikmartin is offline nikmartin
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Join Date: Dec 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvissound View Post
It won't magically sound better but it will buy you a lot more headroom. The problem here isn't sound quality...it is headroom.
Exactly. Truly mobile DJs like me have already made a good many compromises, so comb filtering is probably on the lower end of my 99 problems. 😀

Quote:
The point is the drivers they use in these low end boxes are usually pretty weak. I'm not sure about your specific boxes, but you may be able to retrofit off the shelf drivers into them, which would be the cheapest solution of all. Just be aware that some of these have weird proprietary drivers in them that won't swap out. I think the Mackie SRM450 is one of them.
Since the shipping on the warranty was more than the replacement driver, I voided my warranty and cracked them open. Voice coil was welded in place, cone wouldn't budge. Magnet was tiny, the whole driver weighs 7lbs. I bought some $74 eminence 15" LF and they dropped right in and sound great. Used them this weekend over my brand new PAL12 sub I built from the subwoofer forum and had them crossed at 110Hz and everything sounded great.
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Old 17th January 2017, 01:20 PM   #13
nikmartin is offline nikmartin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvissound View Post
Hello All,

Some thoughts on what I see here:

The Dayton PA310 12" cannot be beat in the bang-for-the-buck department. Roughly equivalent performance to the Delta at 1/2 the price. Pretty smooth response as well. They make a 15" for like 12 bucks more if you want to go that route.
Looking at the Dayton driver, it has an Fs of 39Hz which is a tad low, but maybe better suited in a system that might not always run subs. It has frequency response up to 4k, so definitely usable in this design!


Quote:
Ditto on the compression drivers. The DH200e are ok(I've used them) but the Daytons are similar in design to the B&C DE250, which is considered top of the line. The replacement diaphragms are super cheap if you smoke one.
Looking at the Dayton DT250P-8 1" Polyimide driver, it has decent power handling, and a response of 1,000-20,000 Hz, so should pair well with the Dayton woofer.

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2.5k is a very high crossover for this setup,
With this Dayton driver selection, it seems a better crossover point is in the 2k range, to give the 1" driver a bit more power handling. The woofers start getting directional at around 1k according to the spec sheet, but I think that's true of any 12" driver. Being usable up to 4k gives a bit of room there

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and the units you have selected don't have any padding for the CD, which you will need.
Can you explain this a bit? What type of padding does a CD need in the crossover for power handling, directivity?

Nik
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Old 17th January 2017, 01:44 PM   #14
nikmartin is offline nikmartin
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Originally Posted by djtimmy77 View Post
Might be a coincidence but the Dayton drivers mentioned above just went on sale this week at PE. Almost 20% off. I ordered a couple based on the recommendation above.
I just saw that myself! Here's an updated list based on jarvissound's feedback:

PA Knock-Down Trapezoid Plywood Speaker Cabinet for 12" Driver 245-324 1 $69.00 $69.00
Parts Express Right Angle Steel Bar Speaker Cabinet Handle 262-820 2 $8.63 $17.26
Dayton Audio PA310-8 12" Pro Woofer 295-032 1 $53.00 $53.00
Dayton Audio DT250P-8 1" Polyimide Compression Horn Driver 1-3/8"-18 TPI 8 Ohm 270-406 1 $39.90 $39.90
Dayton Audio XO2W-2K 2-Way Speaker Crossover 2,000 Hz 260-140 1 $29.50 $29.50
Penn-Elcom D0949Z Dish One Neutrik D PennBrite 4" x 4-3/8" 262-038 1 $3.71 $3.71
Penn-Elcom D0946G Gasket For 4" x 4-3/8" Dish 262-049 1 $0.58 $0.58
Penn-Elcom F1687 Rubber Cabinet Foot 1.5" Dia. x 0.375" H 260-777 4 $0.74 $2.96
Amphenol SP-2-MD Speaker Connector 2 Pole "D" Flange Panel Mount Black 092-0160 1 $1.52 $1.52
Goldwood GT-300PB 1" Horn 1-3/8"-18 TPI 270-092 1 $6.29 $6.29

Total: $223, That's a great deal for what should equal or rival the performance of many portable 12" cabs, IMO.

I switched to the Goldwood horn since it's a CD horn with a 90x40 pattern, and the idea of stacking 2 cabs tweeter to tweeter vertically will probably work as long as they are properly secured so as to not be top-heavy.
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Old 17th January 2017, 01:57 PM   #15
djtimmy77 is offline djtimmy77
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The "padding' I believe is a resistor network to bring the horn level down as it is much more sensitive than the speaker. I still need to research this more as it is somewhat new to me.
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Old 17th January 2017, 02:31 PM   #16
turk 182 is offline turk 182  Canada
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if your doing rave style gigs i'd rachet strap down your stacks. and even then you can't count on event security stopping people from climbing on them to do an impromptu dance number!

passive padding or active x-over.... i'd go active and adjust the gain to the horn a resistive pad eats watts and produces heat inside the cab.
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Old 17th January 2017, 03:00 PM   #17
jarvissound is offline jarvissound  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikmartin View Post
Looking at the Dayton driver, it has an Fs of 39Hz which is a tad low, but maybe better suited in a system that might not always run subs. It has frequency response up to 4k, so definitely usable in this design!

The FS alone is not really a very good indicator of how a driver will perform in a box. If you look at the PE enclosure recommendations, you will see that the optimum box F3's for both drivers are in the 75 Hz range. Neither of these are really suited to a DJ gig without subs. No 12" box is really in my opinion. You just can't move enough air to get the thump with a 12".

Looking at the Dayton DT250P-8 1" Polyimide driver, it has decent power handling, and a response of 1,000-20,000 Hz, so should pair well with the Dayton woofer.

I actually use the poly drivers, just be aware that they can sound a bit subdued compared to the titanium. The titanium has that "bite" that a lot of DJ's want. I'm doing theatrical sound so I a more mellow sound.

With this Dayton driver selection, it seems a better crossover point is in the 2k range, to give the 1" driver a bit more power handling. The woofers start getting directional at around 1k according to the spec sheet, but I think that's true of any 12" driver. Being usable up to 4k gives a bit of room there

Just be aware that any 12" will be beaming and having a rising on-axis response at 2k. We cross our 12"s over closer to 1k to keep the directivity constant, but again you are looking at a different application. I'd play with it and see what sounds best and holds up. Another reason to go active.


Can you explain this a bit? What type of padding does a CD need in the crossover for power handling, directivity?

The CD/Horn will have WAY higher sensitivity than the woofer, so you need ~10db of pad to get them in the same ballpark.

Nik
Another thing you might consider, now that you have "fixed" your Alto's, is building a set of 15" boxes with 1.5" or 2" CD's. That will put you in another world in terms of output, and if you use the right 15" you can thump hard with or without subs, and if you're using subs you can thump really hard because they can work in tandem. I think this might be a better option in terms of output for dollar invested.

Brett
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Old 17th January 2017, 03:47 PM   #18
nikmartin is offline nikmartin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djtimmy77 View Post
The "padding' I believe is a resistor network to bring the horn level down as it is much more sensitive than the speaker. I still need to research this more as it is somewhat new to me.
Ah padding for sensitivity matching, I totally spaced on that and was thinking something related to padding the crossover point for some filtering caused by the CD horn. Mentioning CD was what threw me. Yes, these will absolutely need a pad to get the sensitivity matched up for sure. With the Dayton woofer and horn, there's a 9 db difference (105 - 96.1) in sensitivity, so a 6 to 9 db L pad is necessary
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Old 17th January 2017, 04:13 PM   #19
turk 182 is offline turk 182  Canada
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if you remain passive.
and i've seen people take the time to pad a horn to match sensitivity and then boost high frequencies on an eq or channel strip to get their final sound when simply eq'ing what was there in the first place would have been easier...
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Old 17th January 2017, 04:22 PM   #20
djtimmy77 is offline djtimmy77
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Going active for an inexpensive box on a stick while undoubtedly sounding better is a tough sell for the added cost and setup...to your point I will probably be using an inuke dsp on these speakers so can just simply EQ out the extra highs quite easily.
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