Advice needed for new H.O.W. sound install
Hey All,
I am new to this forum and a former DJ/AV Tech that is trying to assist their local H.O.W. with a new sound installation (vocal reinforcement, no instruments). I’ve spoken with 2-3 AV design/installation companies regarding speaker and amp offerings, but would like to get some opinions/advice from others that have used these products. I have experience with JBL and Crown, but not with brands such as, Renkus Heinz and Crestron. I’ve done quite a lot of research on RH, but reviews seem to be mixed.
Essentially, I’m trying to get feedback/opinions on the following (full details in attachments):
I was leaning towards the JBL solution, but I’m not sure if the models we’ve been quoted are good vs. what models/series’ might be better? Online searching doesn’t prove very effective.
I’ve attached a floor plan of the space (not a ceiling/speaker layout), if it helps, and 2 material lists. Budget is of course a consideration, but high-quality vocal communication is of the utmost importance.
I understand that each space and application are different and that there are vast differences with product lines within the same brand, but any recommendations on your experience with XYZ brands and model speakers/amps would be greatly appreciated! Thank you in advance.
Hey All,
I am new to this forum and a former DJ/AV Tech that is trying to assist their local H.O.W. with a new sound installation (vocal reinforcement, no instruments). I’ve spoken with 2-3 AV design/installation companies regarding speaker and amp offerings, but would like to get some opinions/advice from others that have used these products. I have experience with JBL and Crown, but not with brands such as, Renkus Heinz and Crestron. I’ve done quite a lot of research on RH, but reviews seem to be mixed.
Essentially, I’m trying to get feedback/opinions on the following (full details in attachments):
- SPEAKERS: JBL vs. Renkus-Heinz vs. something else?
- AMPS: Crown vs. Crestron vs. Powersoft vs. Biamp
- DSP’s: DBX vs. Symetrix vs. etc.
I was leaning towards the JBL solution, but I’m not sure if the models we’ve been quoted are good vs. what models/series’ might be better? Online searching doesn’t prove very effective.
I’ve attached a floor plan of the space (not a ceiling/speaker layout), if it helps, and 2 material lists. Budget is of course a consideration, but high-quality vocal communication is of the utmost importance.
I understand that each space and application are different and that there are vast differences with product lines within the same brand, but any recommendations on your experience with XYZ brands and model speakers/amps would be greatly appreciated! Thank you in advance.
Attachments
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RH makes excellent product I would go with them over the JBL. I have experience with their products. It might be more pricey over the JBL. The problem with a lot of mass produced products they tends to cut corners and not put in quality components. The major components in any speakers are the crossover, they use industrial capacitors.
RH are more custom you can request how you want it made but it won't be cheap.
RH are more custom you can request how you want it made but it won't be cheap.
Remember, this is a church, not a hifi critical listening room. Your amplifier needs to be reliable, but any subtle nuance of "better"-ness will be lost on the congregation. Especially if it is voice only and not the full range of music. As long as it is a quality amplifier product and has sufficient power, I suspect all the brands will sound about alike.
Unless your speakers are in a loft, then they will likely be flown or hung, so important to make sure the cabs you get are made for this. You can't just screw some eye bolts into a plywood cab and hang it.
For spoken word applications, you won't need huge subwoofers. Even smooth coverage is important.
What have you done to control the acoustics in your hall? That is a very important consideration.
If you have talked to sound professionals in your area, how have they fallen short, in your view? I am not sure the internet will get you better advice, especially for your particular installation.
Unless your speakers are in a loft, then they will likely be flown or hung, so important to make sure the cabs you get are made for this. You can't just screw some eye bolts into a plywood cab and hang it.
For spoken word applications, you won't need huge subwoofers. Even smooth coverage is important.
What have you done to control the acoustics in your hall? That is a very important consideration.
If you have talked to sound professionals in your area, how have they fallen short, in your view? I am not sure the internet will get you better advice, especially for your particular installation.
I'd quite like to see small speakers hidden in the pews. A bunch of buyout 2.5" drivers would do the job. Wire the lot in series and drive from a 100v line system.
Your direct-to-reflected sound ratio is extremely good, since the speakers would be a foot or so from people's faces. No feedback issues, either, since the operating volume of the speakers would be relatively low.
You might want to run them with delays towards the back, or all off one amplifier.
Chris
Your direct-to-reflected sound ratio is extremely good, since the speakers would be a foot or so from people's faces. No feedback issues, either, since the operating volume of the speakers would be relatively low.
You might want to run them with delays towards the back, or all off one amplifier.
Chris
Yes, you will need line delay if you have different speaker locations down the line. You will hear the delay if you don't have it.
There are no delay in the line but once the sound comes out of the speakers you will hear delay.
Enzo's point (I think) is that, because the drivers are nearfield, we might not need to delay them - sounds from further afield will be very quiet in comparison.
Not having to use delay lines would make the install much cheaper to do, as the whole thing could be run off one heavy duty amp.
Assuming, of course, that lots of little nearfield speakers is something the OP is interested in.
Chris
I read the bid. The locations of the speakers are not detailed on the layout, so no opinion. JBL makes a line of pro quality stuff, it should last a while. Make sure none of the part numbers are on the JBL consumer audio website, they run two different operations, and the consumer audio products have as much smoke and mirrors and as little real sound as any company in that market. The visual is more important than the quality of sound in the consumer market, IMHO, since about 1995. The website splits right the first thing. Used JBL pro quality speakers draw a premium on the used musical instrument market in my area, over Behringer etc.
For speaker location, most churches hang the voice speakers from the overhead. This does require speaker boxes reinforced for this kind of service. Speaker hanging arrangements are not something I recommend to be done by amateurs.
The proposal include $$$$ of shure wireless mikes. My church bought imported radio mikes, and started having a lot of dropouts at the five year boundary. These mikes were all replaced with something else imported. Lets ride the import merry-go-round for another round. I'm not on the sound or music committee, they don't like my opinions. I did like the previous telefunken radio mikes that lasted for a decade. I see shure radio mikes on many of the performances on PBS Great Performances and KET-TV Jubilee.
Per the comment above I'm filling up my organs and hifi amps with industrial grade capacitors; I don't hear any problem. They sound much better with new industrial grade electrolytic capacitors than the old dried up parts.
A 70 v voice reinforcement system does allow the audio/visual committee to add drivers later if there are any dead spots: without running a lot of new wire. 70v systems are usually speech oriented. If more drivers overload the amp, a bigger amp can be bought later when the offering is bigger, without redesigning the system. 16 ga speaker wire should be adequate for this building.
If the music committee gets electronic music happy later, a couple of woofer/horn speakers on stands at the front on their own amp are a good solution. Great sounding music should not be the goal in the cry room, the plate counters room, and the other sunday-school rooms. Do not try to run the music through the voice system; my church tried it and it was a miserable failure IMHO. It took 10 years to get a couple of woofer horns speakers up front, and the ones they bought have no bass, the mikes in the acoustic piano have distorted treble. I hope your music committee buys something with better fidelity than my church committee installed; the piano and keyboard parts sound like cheap boom boxes despite $$$$ spent. There are too many electric guitar fans on the music committee IMHO. Those instruments sound okay.
Be sure the amp mike pickups and mixer are in a secure location and the microphones all get picked up and locked in a heavy steel box after services. Providing these security facilities is the building committee's responsibility, not the sound committee. Hitting churches on some quiet night when nothing was scheduled, and ripping out all the parts that will sell at the flea market or electronic market in the next town are a big practice in all locations. Pro quality locks, and hasps that can't be broken by crowbars the way Master will, are part of the plan. third level masterlocks are okay, but the hasps are ****. Use ABUS hasps or a safe with built in locks not outside the case. No wood in the security cabinets, pro thieves have sledgehammers crowbars and axes.
For speaker location, most churches hang the voice speakers from the overhead. This does require speaker boxes reinforced for this kind of service. Speaker hanging arrangements are not something I recommend to be done by amateurs.
The proposal include $$$$ of shure wireless mikes. My church bought imported radio mikes, and started having a lot of dropouts at the five year boundary. These mikes were all replaced with something else imported. Lets ride the import merry-go-round for another round. I'm not on the sound or music committee, they don't like my opinions. I did like the previous telefunken radio mikes that lasted for a decade. I see shure radio mikes on many of the performances on PBS Great Performances and KET-TV Jubilee.
Per the comment above I'm filling up my organs and hifi amps with industrial grade capacitors; I don't hear any problem. They sound much better with new industrial grade electrolytic capacitors than the old dried up parts.
A 70 v voice reinforcement system does allow the audio/visual committee to add drivers later if there are any dead spots: without running a lot of new wire. 70v systems are usually speech oriented. If more drivers overload the amp, a bigger amp can be bought later when the offering is bigger, without redesigning the system. 16 ga speaker wire should be adequate for this building.
If the music committee gets electronic music happy later, a couple of woofer/horn speakers on stands at the front on their own amp are a good solution. Great sounding music should not be the goal in the cry room, the plate counters room, and the other sunday-school rooms. Do not try to run the music through the voice system; my church tried it and it was a miserable failure IMHO. It took 10 years to get a couple of woofer horns speakers up front, and the ones they bought have no bass, the mikes in the acoustic piano have distorted treble. I hope your music committee buys something with better fidelity than my church committee installed; the piano and keyboard parts sound like cheap boom boxes despite $$$$ spent. There are too many electric guitar fans on the music committee IMHO. Those instruments sound okay.
Be sure the amp mike pickups and mixer are in a secure location and the microphones all get picked up and locked in a heavy steel box after services. Providing these security facilities is the building committee's responsibility, not the sound committee. Hitting churches on some quiet night when nothing was scheduled, and ripping out all the parts that will sell at the flea market or electronic market in the next town are a big practice in all locations. Pro quality locks, and hasps that can't be broken by crowbars the way Master will, are part of the plan. third level masterlocks are okay, but the hasps are ****. Use ABUS hasps or a safe with built in locks not outside the case. No wood in the security cabinets, pro thieves have sledgehammers crowbars and axes.
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yes, right or wrong, my point was with everyone having a speaker right in front of them, they would not hear the other speakers five rows away. Delay matters when the front of house sound arrives later in the rear and rear speakers have to sync with them. That wouldn't be the case with small speakers for each listener.
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