I'm planning on building a PA line array using 10-inch drivers. I'd like to use some ribbons for the tweets and was wondering about the possibility of stacking commercial ribbons.
I'm considering the Dayton PHT1-6
Dayton Audio PHT1-6 Planar Horn Tweeter 6 Ohm
If I were to stack these 3-up, should I be concerned about comb filtering?
Apart from the above... would a do-it-yourselfer have everything needed to build a high sensitivity ribbon driver? Is this within our reach or should this be left to the commercial builder?
I'm considering the Dayton PHT1-6
Dayton Audio PHT1-6 Planar Horn Tweeter 6 Ohm
If I were to stack these 3-up, should I be concerned about comb filtering?
Apart from the above... would a do-it-yourselfer have everything needed to build a high sensitivity ribbon driver? Is this within our reach or should this be left to the commercial builder?
I've never seen that ribbon driver before. 105dB is impressive for the price! 3 should give you decent power handling. You'll need to figure out your wiring for an odd number, all 3 in parallel will give you only 2 Ohms.
I wouldn't be too concerned with comb filtering, as it's in the vertical where our ears are less sensitive. I'd be more concerned about the Xover point to the 10s. The tweeter's recommended Xover is 2800Hz, and a typical 10" driver narrows its dispersion to 90 degrees by or before 1700Hz.
You might have to consider either a smaller in-between driver (four 5" to 6" crossed at 600Hz?) or try crossfiring a pair of horizontal 10s at +/-90 degrees. For the 2nd, you'll end up with wide and unwieldy 4x10 box.
These ribbons might be better suited to a column array with a stack of small-format cones of 8" or less. You could improve the tweeter array's vertical cohesion by trimming away the mounting flanges so they can be arrayed closer together.
I wouldn't be too concerned with comb filtering, as it's in the vertical where our ears are less sensitive. I'd be more concerned about the Xover point to the 10s. The tweeter's recommended Xover is 2800Hz, and a typical 10" driver narrows its dispersion to 90 degrees by or before 1700Hz.
You might have to consider either a smaller in-between driver (four 5" to 6" crossed at 600Hz?) or try crossfiring a pair of horizontal 10s at +/-90 degrees. For the 2nd, you'll end up with wide and unwieldy 4x10 box.
These ribbons might be better suited to a column array with a stack of small-format cones of 8" or less. You could improve the tweeter array's vertical cohesion by trimming away the mounting flanges so they can be arrayed closer together.
Actually what I'm doing is building a pair of BFM DR250's. The plans call for piezo's but I don't like the harshness. To keep up with the reversed horn-loaded 10-inch I'll need multiple ribbons with high sensitivity or one large powerful ribbon.
The PHT1-6 is in a horn giving it narrow dispersion. I thought about removing the horn but that may affect the sensitivity. Thoughts?
The PHT1-6 is in a horn giving it narrow dispersion. I thought about removing the horn but that may affect the sensitivity. Thoughts?
Ribbon array.
Its been done - Locally this pair was for sale. 2g for everything - I'd have just got the speakers - if he'd sell just those - except I wasn't intersted in a Home theater set of speakers. These are mids and highs only, and the sub handles the lows. If he had made em full range and a floor stander I'd all be over it.
Thanks.
Srinath.
Its been done - Locally this pair was for sale. 2g for everything - I'd have just got the speakers - if he'd sell just those - except I wasn't intersted in a Home theater set of speakers. These are mids and highs only, and the sub handles the lows. If he had made em full range and a floor stander I'd all be over it.
Thanks.
Srinath.
Attachments
OK, your 10 is horn-loaded, got it! I'm familiar with the DR250, I have an archived version of the plans. The ribbons would be coaxially centered, like in the link below off the BF website (DR200s with 2 Dayton ribbons each).
Unless you're an engineer, buying your ribbon drivers as opposed to DIY will make life much simpler & happier.... The off-axis SPL response of the PHT1-6 is typical & looks good, I wouldn't futz with the horn.
You're still going to have a problem with the Xover point. In Bill's DR designs, he crosses to the highs at 2kHz, so you're going to experience a narrowing of dispersion in the mids before the tweets kick in. You'll get holes in your off-axis response.
The Humble Piezo: Its notorious harshness is tamed with a proper Xover and a tightly-knit array. Building the array is a PITA & it does need a bit of EQ, but the end result is crisp, clear highs & an incredible impulse response (not unlike a ribbon).
Tomatamot: What's wrong with the PHT1-6? Do you have any direct experience with this driver? I know, some Dayton stuff is complete ka-ka, but some is a decent quality budget option.
BillFitzmaurice.info - View topic - My DR200s
Unless you're an engineer, buying your ribbon drivers as opposed to DIY will make life much simpler & happier.... The off-axis SPL response of the PHT1-6 is typical & looks good, I wouldn't futz with the horn.
You're still going to have a problem with the Xover point. In Bill's DR designs, he crosses to the highs at 2kHz, so you're going to experience a narrowing of dispersion in the mids before the tweets kick in. You'll get holes in your off-axis response.
The Humble Piezo: Its notorious harshness is tamed with a proper Xover and a tightly-knit array. Building the array is a PITA & it does need a bit of EQ, but the end result is crisp, clear highs & an incredible impulse response (not unlike a ribbon).
Tomatamot: What's wrong with the PHT1-6? Do you have any direct experience with this driver? I know, some Dayton stuff is complete ka-ka, but some is a decent quality budget option.
BillFitzmaurice.info - View topic - My DR200s
I haven't used the Dayton Audio PHT1-6 Planar Horn Tweeter so I don't know about sound quality of these units. But I have used both planar magnetic and ribbon tweeters in numerous line array designs so I'll comment from that perspective.
These planar tweeter offer high sensitivity (105 dB) and 80 watts power handling so they can satisfy reasonable PA line array applications. These planar and similar ribbon tweeters have similar sound dispersion pattern so they can be successfully arrayed with good results. The horizontal dispersion of these tweeters is established by the 60 degrees horn loading inherent within the design. While not mentioned in the Parts Express specs on these units, the vertical dispersion of these units is essentially limited by their height (or length of them stacked in an array). In contrast to cone drivers, a slot driver like these will have a vertical dispersion across frequency that trends toward the height (length) of the stacked drivers. Thus their radiated sound patterns do not overlap across the entire frequency range. The good news from this performance is that the lack of vertical sound overlap will not create combing effects for the vertical plane. I explain this effect in my white paper at:
http://www.audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf
I typically use planar or ribbon drivers like these in vertical stacks of 4 or more units per side. A stack of 4 can be connected in parallel/series so that it yields a resultant impedance which is the same as the impedance of a single unit (6 ohms in this case).
The recommended crossover for these units is 2800 Hz which is a bit higher than for the DR250 (2000 Hz) so you will have to discern if that is an impact on your plans.
Jim
These planar tweeter offer high sensitivity (105 dB) and 80 watts power handling so they can satisfy reasonable PA line array applications. These planar and similar ribbon tweeters have similar sound dispersion pattern so they can be successfully arrayed with good results. The horizontal dispersion of these tweeters is established by the 60 degrees horn loading inherent within the design. While not mentioned in the Parts Express specs on these units, the vertical dispersion of these units is essentially limited by their height (or length of them stacked in an array). In contrast to cone drivers, a slot driver like these will have a vertical dispersion across frequency that trends toward the height (length) of the stacked drivers. Thus their radiated sound patterns do not overlap across the entire frequency range. The good news from this performance is that the lack of vertical sound overlap will not create combing effects for the vertical plane. I explain this effect in my white paper at:
http://www.audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf
I typically use planar or ribbon drivers like these in vertical stacks of 4 or more units per side. A stack of 4 can be connected in parallel/series so that it yields a resultant impedance which is the same as the impedance of a single unit (6 ohms in this case).
The recommended crossover for these units is 2800 Hz which is a bit higher than for the DR250 (2000 Hz) so you will have to discern if that is an impact on your plans.
Jim
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Well guys I'm still considering my options.
@Cupp Joe thanks for your input. I realize the piezos are part of the DR250 plans. However, I’ve read several reviews and the majority comment about the harshness of the piezos. Maybe they’re not running the xover correctly. Regarding the link you provided to the DR200’s, that particular builder explained in a different post that piezos have manufacturing defects - there are inconsistencies and don’t always sound as they should. Which is why he went ribbon.
@Jim thanks for your input. I read your paper and didn’t really understand everything (hehe) but did learn a few things.
Other Issues – TheDR250 cabinet height is about 20 inches. This limits me to only stacking about 3 of these ribbons. And as Joe mentioned, wiring these in parallel will give me 2 ohms. Will I need an amp that can drive a 2 ohm load?
Idea – instead of stacking 3 how about cross-firing 6 ribbons? Now that’s a lot of ribbons!
The crossover at 2Khz is a concern. I would probably need to find a different ribbon. Also looked at the Dayton PT2C-8 but it looks like that won’t work any better. Any other suggestions?
Dayton Audio PT2C-8 Planar Tweeter
@Cupp Joe thanks for your input. I realize the piezos are part of the DR250 plans. However, I’ve read several reviews and the majority comment about the harshness of the piezos. Maybe they’re not running the xover correctly. Regarding the link you provided to the DR200’s, that particular builder explained in a different post that piezos have manufacturing defects - there are inconsistencies and don’t always sound as they should. Which is why he went ribbon.
@Jim thanks for your input. I read your paper and didn’t really understand everything (hehe) but did learn a few things.
Other Issues – TheDR250 cabinet height is about 20 inches. This limits me to only stacking about 3 of these ribbons. And as Joe mentioned, wiring these in parallel will give me 2 ohms. Will I need an amp that can drive a 2 ohm load?
Idea – instead of stacking 3 how about cross-firing 6 ribbons? Now that’s a lot of ribbons!
The crossover at 2Khz is a concern. I would probably need to find a different ribbon. Also looked at the Dayton PT2C-8 but it looks like that won’t work any better. Any other suggestions?
Dayton Audio PT2C-8 Planar Tweeter
The Goldwood piezos definitely have QC challenges. The CTS (formerly Motorola) piezos are higher quality, but the prices are quite prohibitive. The new kid on the block is GRS, boasting a larger diaphragm than the other 2. Maybe they're a little better...?
The other problem with the DR line is how little depth of space is available to mount a HF section. Ribbons & piezos already barely fit. A rare find would be some used Stage Accompany SA8535 ribbon drivers. They can cross as low as 1kHz comfortably. The only other SR-type ribbon is from Alcons Audio.
Personally, I wouldn't drive a delicate ribbon tweeter (array) at 2 Ohms. If you crossfire 2 tweeter banks, at least you can wire in series/parallel for a higher impedence, then attenuate the excess SPL for even more protection.
The other problem with the DR line is how little depth of space is available to mount a HF section. Ribbons & piezos already barely fit. A rare find would be some used Stage Accompany SA8535 ribbon drivers. They can cross as low as 1kHz comfortably. The only other SR-type ribbon is from Alcons Audio.
Personally, I wouldn't drive a delicate ribbon tweeter (array) at 2 Ohms. If you crossfire 2 tweeter banks, at least you can wire in series/parallel for a higher impedence, then attenuate the excess SPL for even more protection.
Yeah an SA8535 ribbon would be sweet. But pricey. I checked the CTS line of piezos and they are expensive as well. I’d probably get the sound I’m looking for with six (6) of the Dayton PT2C-8’s setup as 2 banks of 3. That’s still a $300 tweet.
Lets compare cost. The Goldwood piezos, for two cabs would cost about $110. This also gives you 2 extra piezos, wich is good because the plans call for cutting the horn at an angle and then joining two piezos together (melded array). The two extra will come in handy in case of error. This will take some percision and of course labor. I would say maybe another hundred in labor/time.
The Dayton PT2C-8 are about 50 bucks each. So about $300 for 2 banks. Even tho it would cost me $200 more I would save some time and get better quality sound. And maybe I won’t need to cut these. Yes, I’m trying to justify.
I’ll start drawing out the two banks on paper to see what it looks like. Can anyone help with suggestions on crossfiring 2 banks of 3 ribbons? Spacing and such. I’m sure there are some critical details.
Lets compare cost. The Goldwood piezos, for two cabs would cost about $110. This also gives you 2 extra piezos, wich is good because the plans call for cutting the horn at an angle and then joining two piezos together (melded array). The two extra will come in handy in case of error. This will take some percision and of course labor. I would say maybe another hundred in labor/time.
The Dayton PT2C-8 are about 50 bucks each. So about $300 for 2 banks. Even tho it would cost me $200 more I would save some time and get better quality sound. And maybe I won’t need to cut these. Yes, I’m trying to justify.
I’ll start drawing out the two banks on paper to see what it looks like. Can anyone help with suggestions on crossfiring 2 banks of 3 ribbons? Spacing and such. I’m sure there are some critical details.
I missed one: SLS also has a pro ribbon. Again, pricey. Hi-Vi might have something interesting, as well.
The GRS piezos seem to be cheaper than the Goldwoods. Get more than 2 extra piezos just because of their (lack of) QC.
Don't think of spacing with the ribbons, think about cramming them as close together as possible. Experiment with crossfiring angles between 90 and 120 degrees, decide where it sounds best to you. If you can measure, great. However, your ears have the final say. I'll let the more educated folks take it from here....
The GRS piezos seem to be cheaper than the Goldwoods. Get more than 2 extra piezos just because of their (lack of) QC.
Don't think of spacing with the ribbons, think about cramming them as close together as possible. Experiment with crossfiring angles between 90 and 120 degrees, decide where it sounds best to you. If you can measure, great. However, your ears have the final say. I'll let the more educated folks take it from here....
$80 on sale at PE
Peavey RD 1.6 Versarray Ribbon Tweeter 8 Ohm
• High output for a true
ribbon tweeter, 97 dB
• Extremely fast
transient response
Specifications: • Power handling:
20 watts RMS/50 watts max
• Frequency range: 1,200-40,000 Hz
• Dimensions: Overall: 6.5" H x 3.35"
W, Cutout: 4.88" H x 2.40" W,
Depth: 2.70
Peavey sells several stackable PA speakers with Versarry ribbons between two woofers. You would want to find data proving the 1,200Hz lower frequency claim.
Peavey RD 1.6 Versarray Ribbon Tweeter 8 Ohm
• High output for a true
ribbon tweeter, 97 dB
• Extremely fast
transient response
Specifications: • Power handling:
20 watts RMS/50 watts max
• Frequency range: 1,200-40,000 Hz
• Dimensions: Overall: 6.5" H x 3.35"
W, Cutout: 4.88" H x 2.40" W,
Depth: 2.70
Peavey sells several stackable PA speakers with Versarry ribbons between two woofers. You would want to find data proving the 1,200Hz lower frequency claim.
you must have heard ribbons and fell in love. for p.a. I doubt anyone will hear much difference. at a noisy venue the piezo's will sound good. I have used the 12 goldwood array. it had the same type sound as a 1" comp driver. the more that you use the smoother the response. they are easy to cut with a 45 degree miter box. after the first two you will be an expert.
I have experience with the Dayton Audio PT2C-8 which reflects walters' comment. I didn't use the PT2C-8 in a line array arrangement, however. Just in a mid-sized 3-way for small venues. The element sounds great in the living room, but to my disappointment it's performance in the area of live sound reinforcement is inferior to a good horn loaded CD.
Maybe it's a different story in a line array. Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.
Maybe it's a different story in a line array. Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.
Of course I may be mistaken but find 105dB/1W unbelievable.
Yes, they publish a frequency curve stating so, yet .....
Ribbons are not very efficient, their main point is low mass , fast response, extended highs.
The "horn" shown is more cosmetic than anything else, may add some extra loading at the lower end of the tweeter response.
Find the Peavey 97dB rating much more believable.
That said, out of curiosity, I'd buy just one of the Daytons and test it, only after that embark in buying many.
Yes, they publish a frequency curve stating so, yet .....
Ribbons are not very efficient, their main point is low mass , fast response, extended highs.
The "horn" shown is more cosmetic than anything else, may add some extra loading at the lower end of the tweeter response.
Find the Peavey 97dB rating much more believable.
That said, out of curiosity, I'd buy just one of the Daytons and test it, only after that embark in buying many.
The PV is also a true ribbon, not a planar. Planars are very inefficient, true ribbons are more efficient but not crazy high. Some high end ribbons touch 100dB/2.83V, but that's because they are between 2 and 4 ohms - so they are realy mid 90's. Planars generally can't even get there. The BG's are pretty low and the Dayton ratings are inflated. Making a line array with them helps with the depth of coverage but individually I'm not surprised they suck for PA.
I do like the way true ribbons sound, and won't go back to domes for home speakers.
I do like the way true ribbons sound, and won't go back to domes for home speakers.
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