Has anybody used this to aid in PA setup? - diyAudio
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Old 29th August 2014, 06:14 AM   #1
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Default Has anybody used this to aid in PA setup?

I would ask in the pro sound forums, but i feel as if i would get attacked for even thinking about it. I have a drive rack PA2 in the aid to try and bring somewhat better sound to my area with what i have. I was wondering if anybody has used this Dayton Audio OmniMic V2 Precision Measurement System system to set up their pa to align the subs to the tops and fix or adjust other sonic anomalies before a show. Im looking at trying to build 2 othorns to re enforce the low end in my PA and I'm always trying to get better sound but from what I've read they are a different animal when it comes to alignment. People in my area have never experienced good sound, if somebody wants to hear the horror stories PM me. I can give the details to the rest of my system if required. I was wondering if people have used such a system to set up their mobile PA systems. Thanks :-)
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Old 29th August 2014, 09:40 AM   #2
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I was under the impression that it's a pretty standard technique on big PA setups, stick pink noise through the system and use a graphic equaliser to level the output (as much as possible) on a spectrum analyser.
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Old 29th August 2014, 11:17 AM   #3
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Nigel is correct unless you are working in a tight space wnen phase checking is a good idea and always use ONE sub or both subs next to each other or holes in bass response will be evident as you walk around the room. Outside doesn't matter as there is little or no reflections.
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Old 29th August 2014, 12:01 PM   #4
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Could be fun to have a seperate PA Horror Stories Thread. I'll set that up if you wouldn't mind contributing.

I need to get around to time-aligning my setup, but the neighbours wouldn't be impressed...

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Old 29th August 2014, 12:11 PM   #5
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I use REW and a mighty mic.
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Old 29th August 2014, 02:30 PM   #6
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I have a Dayton mic and a copy of REW and I use it with a DCX on all my passive PA speakers systems. But I don't do any testing in venues it's all done beforehand outside in my yard, the idea is to get all drivers in time alignment and add PEQ with the processor to tame the nastiest response peak or dips that aren't a result of mic position. The key points here are you need to spend some time with the gear to see how mic position affects your results, and once you get the system processed flat you probably won't need to do much in a venue besides some general EQ to taste.
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Old 30th August 2014, 04:04 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conanski View Post
I have a Dayton mic and a copy of REW and I use it with a DCX on all my passive PA speakers systems. But I don't do any testing in venues it's all done beforehand outside in my yard, the idea is to get all drivers in time alignment and add PEQ with the processor to tame the nastiest response peak or dips that aren't a result of mic position. The key points here are you need to spend some time with the gear to see how mic position affects your results, and once you get the system processed flat you probably won't need to do much in a venue besides some general EQ to taste.
Wouldn't doing it in your yard and then disassembling it and then setting it up in a venue affect the settings you made when you had it set up outside? Ive heard the Driverack PA2 (which i own) is pretty good at flattening out a system outdoors, then put the settings in the peq filters (?) and then running it again. I thought that you were suposto use the eq in the room? New to measurement and adjusting when it comes to timing and such. the price for that kit is not so bad i was thinking about diving in. Im the only one in my area that cares about such things it seems. I might even level out my system tomorrow. When i delay my tops to my subs or vise versa depending on the situation i just use a tape measure and eyeball where the voice coils would be and set it to that so its close, but if i could get it more on point I'm sure the difference would be noticed.
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Old 30th August 2014, 04:45 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by SonicSoundVW View Post
Wouldn't doing it in your yard and then disassembling it and then setting it up in a venue affect the settings you made when you had it set up outside?
Yes and no. Here is the theory behind this method, when you measure the speakers outdoors you are measuring the speakers only and can correct for any response irregularities inherent in the design. When you measure indoors there is no way to know if that big hump at 300hz is because of the speaker design or because of a room node. But after you have that baseline calibration done outdoors if you do measure indoors again you now KNOW that any irregularities are a result of the room, and what you have to understand is that not all of those problems can be fixed with EQ. Matter of fact the first thing you should do is move the mic around and look at the response from different places, if the same problems occur in all those mic positions first change the speaker position to try and fix it.. if that is possible, and then try fixing it with EQ. Experience shows however that once you get the speakers processed flat you will just need general bass and treble adjustments inside to make it sound good, you won't need to go through the whole recalibration process.


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Originally Posted by SonicSoundVW View Post
Ive heard the Driverack PA2 (which i own) is pretty good at flattening out a system outdoors, then put the settings in the peq filters (?) and then running it again. I thought that you were suposto use the eq in the room?
I have not heard that, the people I know with a Driverack find the AutoEQ does more harm than good. The problem is the system doesn't know if the response peak or null it is measuring is because of a the speaker, because of interaction between speakers causing comb filtering, or because of a room node. If it is because of the speaker it can sometimes be corrected with EQ but if it's because of the other two it probably can't be fixed and that is when you see these massive boosts or cuts and the system trying to apply several filters at the same frequency. Bottom line the AutoEQ isn't that useful as you're going to have to go in and undo some of what it does anyway so you may as well just do it manually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicSoundVW View Post
When i delay my tops to my subs or vise versa depending on the situation i just use a tape measure and eyeball where the voice coils would be and set it to that so its close, but if i could get it more on point I'm sure the difference would be noticed.
Yes there is a bit more to it, the electrical characteristics of the speaker drivers and any passive crossover components also affect phase and time response so the system will often need a bit more delay than physical measurements would suggest. The Behringer DCX has an AutoAlign feature for setting time delays, again this is a feature that is useful but you can't just blindly accept what it generates as being correct. I typically take a response measurement before and after setting delays and if it's correct you will see a flatter response in the crossover region, this is what I suggest you do with your system.
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Old 30th August 2014, 10:00 PM   #9
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i do this delay /phase adjustment by playing sine waves created with cooledit and converted 2 mp3 or bunt to cd. i do a file for every 190hz increase starting from 1 octave below crossover til one octave above.
i put a cheap spl meter between the subs and tops and then adjust delay for maximum cancellation. meter can be cheap since absolute accuracy is not needed. write down the delay values for each frequency and for each delay add half or minus half period time. the setting with the best consistency over frequency is the right one with special focus on the crossover plus minus 20percent area.
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Old 31st August 2014, 05:04 AM   #10
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Quote:
Here is the theory behind this method, when you measure the speakers outdoors you are measuring the speakers only and can correct for any response irregularities inherent in the design.
Im retarded, i just got confused i bet, i totally understand what you are saying now.

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I have not heard that, the people I know with a Driverack find the AutoEQ does more harm than good.
I believe this was true of the PA+ which used pink noise and a single mic location. The PA2 that i own uses 4 separate mic locations and sine sweeps to measure system response. i took a picture of the first time i used it.

[IMG]Click the image to open in full size.[/IMG]

I used it in my garage, which for some reason is a bass vacuum. definitely NOT acoustically treated. lol

From what i have been told is you take your system outside in a big open area if possible away from any boundaries, run the auto EQ, write down the results, plug the results in the PEQ(speaker tunings), then run it again outdoors to see if it made changes and from there depending on what it dose you can save it or get it as flat with the PEQ and then run the auto eq in the venue to try and take care some of the acoustic properties of the venue. Of course there is never going to be a one button push fix it all solution, i understand that. i will admit i have yet to do it this way and have only used it a few times in venue before a show, i am not a professional, but from what myself and others attending have said it sounded pretty good next to amazing. I also had one guy amazed a PA could sound so good. Then again, the primary DJ system for the local company in town is B-52 matrix with no processing. But i digress.

The problem i am running into is it seems as if not to many people are using them, so nobody knows much about the PA2 specifically. If anybody happens to know somebody using a DBX DriveRack PA2, if they don't know already, please inform them that their is a firmware update as well as a software update for the remote control features using laptops and mobile devices.

i saw this yesterday while searching for real world usage:
HARMAN International: HARMAN’s dbx DriveRack PA2 Loudspeaker Management System Makes A Night and Day Difference for Live Sound Engineer Whitney Day

Im just wondering how to get the delay as close as possible to get the best sound out of my system, everything can always sound better. :-)
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