Last night I attended an Eagles concert in Washington DC. The sound was very disappointing from an audiophile perspective but excellent by general standards.
The reason I started this thread was to start a running list of who heard what gear where and what they thought about it.
Sadly I did not get any geek time since I was with others who were not geeks and I couldn't go query the sound engineers as I normally do but these are the details for the sound at last nights show.
1. very smooth frequency response.. No abrupt peaks or dips.
2. Good dialog / vocal range. Very intelligible voices.
3. EXCELLENT venue control. No resonances, no buzzes, echos, noticeable delays.
Now the not so good stuff.
4. +9 db hump around 60Hz relative to the rest of the spectrum.
5. Dropped off like a cliff above 8-10K.. Absolutely no air or sparkle.
6. appeared to have a mid bass suckout but that may have actually been the huge hump at 60 over whelming any snap.
They were using flying line arrays on top of the stage and what appeared to be rows of subs on each side of the stage.
No names obvious on the line arrays, like no little orange square on the grill that makes the brand instantly recognizable. And all electronics other than the mixing board were hidden. Not being able to see the rear of the arrays I couldn't even tell if they were powered or passive arrays.
So what I was hoping was that we start a list of pro gear and the impression of the gear for us "want to be" sound geeks who aren't nearly qualified to do such a venue.
I personally think the gear last night was WAY more capable than they let it do.. Disappointing. However the music it's self wasn't bad at all.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/102799278299264325476/albums/5327329412089924673/5986178563664658482?cfem=1&pid=5986178563664658482&oid=102799278299264325476
The reason I started this thread was to start a running list of who heard what gear where and what they thought about it.
Sadly I did not get any geek time since I was with others who were not geeks and I couldn't go query the sound engineers as I normally do but these are the details for the sound at last nights show.
1. very smooth frequency response.. No abrupt peaks or dips.
2. Good dialog / vocal range. Very intelligible voices.
3. EXCELLENT venue control. No resonances, no buzzes, echos, noticeable delays.
Now the not so good stuff.
4. +9 db hump around 60Hz relative to the rest of the spectrum.
5. Dropped off like a cliff above 8-10K.. Absolutely no air or sparkle.
6. appeared to have a mid bass suckout but that may have actually been the huge hump at 60 over whelming any snap.
They were using flying line arrays on top of the stage and what appeared to be rows of subs on each side of the stage.
No names obvious on the line arrays, like no little orange square on the grill that makes the brand instantly recognizable. And all electronics other than the mixing board were hidden. Not being able to see the rear of the arrays I couldn't even tell if they were powered or passive arrays.
So what I was hoping was that we start a list of pro gear and the impression of the gear for us "want to be" sound geeks who aren't nearly qualified to do such a venue.
I personally think the gear last night was WAY more capable than they let it do.. Disappointing. However the music it's self wasn't bad at all.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/102799278299264325476/albums/5327329412089924673/5986178563664658482?cfem=1&pid=5986178563664658482&oid=102799278299264325476
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The gear is only half the story.
The other half is the venue and the engineer is almost always fighting the room, many of which are abysmal acoustically speaking. That goes especially for sports halls.
I know what used to be a popular venue which was usually used for ice hockey in which no PA would ever sound anything other than atrocious. Luckily it was demolished in '01.
The problems usually affect the bass which tends to be extremely uneven throughout the venue. You can get it right for one spot but never uniformly across the whole venue.
In that case the engineer has to aim for the best compromise but that will always leave some areas with too much bass while others have not enough.
An added problem is that the acoustics change dramatically from an empty hall (as it is when the sound check is done) to when it is full of people.
DSP is next to no help at all since again it can 'fix' issues in one area but that will likely increase issues in other spots.
The other half is the venue and the engineer is almost always fighting the room, many of which are abysmal acoustically speaking. That goes especially for sports halls.
I know what used to be a popular venue which was usually used for ice hockey in which no PA would ever sound anything other than atrocious. Luckily it was demolished in '01.
The problems usually affect the bass which tends to be extremely uneven throughout the venue. You can get it right for one spot but never uniformly across the whole venue.
In that case the engineer has to aim for the best compromise but that will always leave some areas with too much bass while others have not enough.
An added problem is that the acoustics change dramatically from an empty hall (as it is when the sound check is done) to when it is full of people.
DSP is next to no help at all since again it can 'fix' issues in one area but that will likely increase issues in other spots.
I used to run a mobile disco.
I had to work at all sorts of venues.
I found pushing out a decent volume mostly drowned out any room problems.
The sound obviously changed depending on how many people were in and whether the room had carpets and/or lots of curtains.
The gear makes a huge difference too. I started off with a pair of 2 by 12 Fane cabinets and these were very powerful. I later used Eminence speakers and couldn't get the same volume despite the speakers being a higher wattage.
I had to work at all sorts of venues.
I found pushing out a decent volume mostly drowned out any room problems.
The sound obviously changed depending on how many people were in and whether the room had carpets and/or lots of curtains.
The gear makes a huge difference too. I started off with a pair of 2 by 12 Fane cabinets and these were very powerful. I later used Eminence speakers and couldn't get the same volume despite the speakers being a higher wattage.
As I mentioned in #3, they did a GREAT job of taming the venue.. However the venue already had extensive sound absorption applied. I should have gotten a picture of the panels draped from the ceiling and the added acoustic curtain specifically for the concert.
I just still somehow think they could have gotten a little more out of the gear and make the sound more enjoyable..
I also forgot to mention the HUGE amount of compression that was VERY well done... None of the music sounded compressed which is the best compliment you can give on that aspect.
Basically it sounded like a 1950's recording played back through a modern hi-fi system. You could just tell the system wasn't doing anything near what it was capable of.
I just still somehow think they could have gotten a little more out of the gear and make the sound more enjoyable..
I also forgot to mention the HUGE amount of compression that was VERY well done... None of the music sounded compressed which is the best compliment you can give on that aspect.
Basically it sounded like a 1950's recording played back through a modern hi-fi system. You could just tell the system wasn't doing anything near what it was capable of.
Eagles ? that must have been very big
being this big, how good can it get ? better than 'excellent by general standards', with your own words ?
difficult to play well if the sound isn't good
Hi,
There is no excuse for a missing top octave, especially with
an older audience who will happily accept an obviously too
bright top octave to those with younger ears.
To build a PA that fills a big space with real low bass is
an expensive proposition and basically needs lots more
equipment, in terms of weight and shipping volume.
Restrictions on maximum SPL often lead to compressionitis
as the only way of making the system louder in the regime.
Its generally uneconomic to go below 40Hz for
a portable rig. Sadly there is a propensity to
boost what bass there is excessively to try
to make up for no low bass. Also common
in cinema's with inadequate bass systems.
rgds, sreten.
There is no excuse for a missing top octave, especially with
an older audience who will happily accept an obviously too
bright top octave to those with younger ears.
To build a PA that fills a big space with real low bass is
an expensive proposition and basically needs lots more
equipment, in terms of weight and shipping volume.
Restrictions on maximum SPL often lead to compressionitis
as the only way of making the system louder in the regime.
Its generally uneconomic to go below 40Hz for
a portable rig. Sadly there is a propensity to
boost what bass there is excessively to try
to make up for no low bass. Also common
in cinema's with inadequate bass systems.
rgds, sreten.
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Eagles ? that must have been very big
being this big, how good can it get ? better than 'excellent by general standards', with your own words ?
difficult to play well if the sound isn't good
18K plus seats they claim but I bet 20-25% of those were not usable due to stage position..
Yes for the average built in TV speaker listening public the sound was "good", for anyone who knows "Hi-Fi" not so much.
I saw the Eagles on the HFO tour in an open air football stadium and it was one of the best sounding concerts I have ever experienced. Yeah there was a judicous amount of LF boost applied.. seems that has become an all too common problem with BEs now, but in this case it was well managed as there was no distortion from the subs, no mud on the vocals and the rest of the spectrum was clean and detailed, very hifi. I have no idea what equipment was used on this tour and it was quite some time ago, and outdoor venues can be easier to manage from a sound perspective because there are fewer reflections, but it does show that it can be done and ultimately the man at the controls can make or break the sound.
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Curiosity..
Grew up on JBL, EV and Altec Lansing venues but now they have many other options and I am just curious to hear what others think of the different options..
I don't think I will be able to hear that many different brands so I was asking others for their input.
Especially curious to get opinions of the powersoft stuff in use for gigs if anyone has heard it.
That is a popular "set dressing" to feed those ego maniacs on stage..
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
A far more common problem then a missing top octave is top end to rip your head off, generally due to a 'sound engineer' who has been mixing rock bands 'for 30 years' and whos ears are 'fine'....
Any of the top tier gear is fine if deployed correctly in a reasonable room, and all of it will suck if deployed by the hard of thinking.
I have put in Nexo, L'Acoustics, D&B Audiotechnic (Q series is lovely kit), and several others and it all works rather well if employed correctly.
That bass hump may very well be a summation effect, often you get a bass 'power alley' right down the middle of the venue if you just to the two bass stacks thing, and even more so if you do the line of subs right along the front of the stage without setting up amplitude and delay shading to reduce the tendency to form a narrow beam in the far field.
It is possible that the missing top octave could have been a issue with the box covering your seating block, less common in line source hangs but it can occur and is not always spotted during a walkaround the venue during testing, getting truely even coverage in a large venue is **HARD** and a few frequency response 'issues' are not uncommon.
The Quo are well known in the touring circuit for the wall of empty marshall stacks, much appreciated they are a hell of a lot lighter then the real thing.
One thing that is quite common at the top level is to actually have the guitar amp on stage driving a cab in a dressing room or such backstage which is then miced to a wedge on stage, means the guitar amp can be cranked without it bleeding into every open mic on the stage.
Regards, Dan.
Any of the top tier gear is fine if deployed correctly in a reasonable room, and all of it will suck if deployed by the hard of thinking.
I have put in Nexo, L'Acoustics, D&B Audiotechnic (Q series is lovely kit), and several others and it all works rather well if employed correctly.
That bass hump may very well be a summation effect, often you get a bass 'power alley' right down the middle of the venue if you just to the two bass stacks thing, and even more so if you do the line of subs right along the front of the stage without setting up amplitude and delay shading to reduce the tendency to form a narrow beam in the far field.
It is possible that the missing top octave could have been a issue with the box covering your seating block, less common in line source hangs but it can occur and is not always spotted during a walkaround the venue during testing, getting truely even coverage in a large venue is **HARD** and a few frequency response 'issues' are not uncommon.
The Quo are well known in the touring circuit for the wall of empty marshall stacks, much appreciated they are a hell of a lot lighter then the real thing.
One thing that is quite common at the top level is to actually have the guitar amp on stage driving a cab in a dressing room or such backstage which is then miced to a wedge on stage, means the guitar amp can be cranked without it bleeding into every open mic on the stage.
Regards, Dan.
True.
I was onstage and backstage at Eddie Van Halen's Tour in Argentina.
He had his half stage filled with a wall of Marshall cabinets.
Old worn real ones, not stage props, but most speakerless and even a few without the back cover.
Although there was a black velvet curtain behind, sometimes you could see some stage hand in a white T shirt behind them, if he got some direct lights on him. Very funny.
Eddie actually hade 3 heads ON, 2 with Standby OFF and he actually used ONE, into ONE 4x12"cab.
The only one which was miked , by the way, and which he approached to increase feedback.
He used the amp as a deluxe distortion pedal, it was miked "dry" (easy to hear that onstage) , effects were added in the mix (specially his trademark Flanger) and sent back to wedges and huge sidefills.
The Bass player had some 12/15 SVT and 8x10"but he also used only one.
*His* "effect", a cheesy guitar synthesizer he used for solos, was onstage.
probably because its use was very simple (he just turned it on/off and used whatever was preset) and he did not need speaker sound like Eddie.
As of Nigel's experience, obviously he "saw" the stage backline.
He didnt notice the huge *flown* PA, many feet overhead.
It might also been on both stage sides (and Subs below it) wrapped in cloth or simply in the dark.
Here's a practical example: my customers, Argentine Rock Band "La Renga" ("The Cripple") playing the Buenos Aires "River Plate" soccer Stadium, 48000 seats.
Not everybody sees the same, depends on light and where you are:
1) back view of the side PA cabinets, while being set up, still uncovered with acoustically transparent grill cloth
2) same cabinets, (un)seen from the side, hidden by black tarpaulins:
Say "hi" to my beloved daughter Victoria
This is still the early afternoon soundcheck.
Notice the flown sidefills, floor subwoofers and standard wedges.
Which just by themselves do not have "balls".
3) same stage side main cabinets, seen from the public side, hidden by grille cloth.
Also all the space between stage floor and actual hard floor is filled with 2x18" subwoofers.
Cloth hiding them is somewhat thicker, no danger of losing highs
4) at night, what-the-public-sees.
I bet no one is aware of the actual PA system, although, obviously, sound must come from "somewhere"
Notice the black "empty" space between illuminated stage and side projection screens.
By day, you can still see their rough shapes.
I was onstage and backstage at Eddie Van Halen's Tour in Argentina.
He had his half stage filled with a wall of Marshall cabinets.
Old worn real ones, not stage props, but most speakerless and even a few without the back cover.
Although there was a black velvet curtain behind, sometimes you could see some stage hand in a white T shirt behind them, if he got some direct lights on him. Very funny.
Eddie actually hade 3 heads ON, 2 with Standby OFF and he actually used ONE, into ONE 4x12"cab.
The only one which was miked , by the way, and which he approached to increase feedback.
He used the amp as a deluxe distortion pedal, it was miked "dry" (easy to hear that onstage) , effects were added in the mix (specially his trademark Flanger) and sent back to wedges and huge sidefills.
The Bass player had some 12/15 SVT and 8x10"but he also used only one.
*His* "effect", a cheesy guitar synthesizer he used for solos, was onstage.
probably because its use was very simple (he just turned it on/off and used whatever was preset) and he did not need speaker sound like Eddie.
As of Nigel's experience, obviously he "saw" the stage backline.
He didnt notice the huge *flown* PA, many feet overhead.
It might also been on both stage sides (and Subs below it) wrapped in cloth or simply in the dark.
Here's a practical example: my customers, Argentine Rock Band "La Renga" ("The Cripple") playing the Buenos Aires "River Plate" soccer Stadium, 48000 seats.
Not everybody sees the same, depends on light and where you are:
1) back view of the side PA cabinets, while being set up, still uncovered with acoustically transparent grill cloth
2) same cabinets, (un)seen from the side, hidden by black tarpaulins:
Say "hi" to my beloved daughter Victoria
This is still the early afternoon soundcheck.
Notice the flown sidefills, floor subwoofers and standard wedges.
Which just by themselves do not have "balls".
3) same stage side main cabinets, seen from the public side, hidden by grille cloth.
Also all the space between stage floor and actual hard floor is filled with 2x18" subwoofers.
Cloth hiding them is somewhat thicker, no danger of losing highs
4) at night, what-the-public-sees.
I bet no one is aware of the actual PA system, although, obviously, sound must come from "somewhere"
Notice the black "empty" space between illuminated stage and side projection screens.
By day, you can still see their rough shapes.
Eagles, Roger Waters, Springsteen and Clapton sound!
These are the shows I've seen and heard the last few years in Vancouver. Eagles sounded fine at the back of arena in the balcony. Clapton was great sounding in the middle of the arena at the bottom of one side. Springsteen was tinny sounding but what a show. Roger Waters was the worst, unbearable and unrecognizable sound on the side mid section and half way down the arena. Makes me wonder why, with all this new technology and arrays. Seems like we got better sound from the old style cabinets of the 60's. Maybe too much technology to handle. But come on!! Roger Waters can't get decent sound except on the floor!!!
These are the shows I've seen and heard the last few years in Vancouver. Eagles sounded fine at the back of arena in the balcony. Clapton was great sounding in the middle of the arena at the bottom of one side. Springsteen was tinny sounding but what a show. Roger Waters was the worst, unbearable and unrecognizable sound on the side mid section and half way down the arena. Makes me wonder why, with all this new technology and arrays. Seems like we got better sound from the old style cabinets of the 60's. Maybe too much technology to handle. But come on!! Roger Waters can't get decent sound except on the floor!!!
Talk to his sound man, he is the one making what you hear. The artists usually never hears the PA.
I used to read an industry mag, I think it was Pro Sound News, see link, and in the back it listed all the big touring acts, and who was the sound contractor and the sound system gear list. so it might tell us HooHah sound was doing some performer tour with a yamaha PM4000 and QSC somethings into EAW whatevers. It was exactly the sort of thing you propose. It may still go on, I haven;t read it in recent years.
Pro Sound News Reviews Tools Live Charts Recording Gear & Business | www.prosoundnetwork.com
I used to read an industry mag, I think it was Pro Sound News, see link, and in the back it listed all the big touring acts, and who was the sound contractor and the sound system gear list. so it might tell us HooHah sound was doing some performer tour with a yamaha PM4000 and QSC somethings into EAW whatevers. It was exactly the sort of thing you propose. It may still go on, I haven;t read it in recent years.
Pro Sound News Reviews Tools Live Charts Recording Gear & Business | www.prosoundnetwork.com
To the OP:
I'm interested in where you were seated for the show as there is usually a pretty significant boost at 10K. The main PA was 14 deep Clair i5's next to 2 wide 6 deep Clair S4 subs per side. An additional 8 S4's were along the front of the stage as well as a side hang on each side of 6 i5's and 3 S4's. The rear hang was 12 deep Clair i3's. There were delays as well which were 8 deep Clair iDL's. FOH console is a Digico SD5. There is not a bump in the system eq at 60Hz so what you heard may have been a build up related to the room. Can't comment on the mid range sickout but I can tell you there are significant cuts between 160 and 400Hz. There is zero full band compression being used in the mix. A little bit of multi band compression on vocals but that is it. We're talking 2:1 ratios at most. Glad you enjoyed the show.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm interested in where you were seated for the show as there is usually a pretty significant boost at 10K. The main PA was 14 deep Clair i5's next to 2 wide 6 deep Clair S4 subs per side. An additional 8 S4's were along the front of the stage as well as a side hang on each side of 6 i5's and 3 S4's. The rear hang was 12 deep Clair i3's. There were delays as well which were 8 deep Clair iDL's. FOH console is a Digico SD5. There is not a bump in the system eq at 60Hz so what you heard may have been a build up related to the room. Can't comment on the mid range sickout but I can tell you there are significant cuts between 160 and 400Hz. There is zero full band compression being used in the mix. A little bit of multi band compression on vocals but that is it. We're talking 2:1 ratios at most. Glad you enjoyed the show.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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