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Old 8th March 2014, 11:50 AM   #31
troystg is offline troystg  United States
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Location: In a dream... Please don't wake me.
My daughter's name is also Victoria... :-).
Thinking positive doesn't make things better, it makes you a better person.
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Old 8th March 2014, 12:47 PM   #32
infinia is offline infinia  United States
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Location: SoCal
Concert sound and promoters
I've noticed at big shows they somehow degrade or hold back the sound for opening acts.
without doing that , it's very easy for some 'up and comers' to out perform the headliner. soundman works for the tour manager not the bands per se.
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Old 8th March 2014, 02:12 PM   #33
Charles Darwin is offline Charles Darwin  United Kingdom
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Location: Birmingham, UK
That was fairly normal even back in the '80s.
For the support act part of the PA was simply not switched on plus they got fewer channels on the FoH console and restricted access to outboard gear like reverbs, compressors, limiters etc (that may be less of an issue since the advent of digital consoles).
Also if the support act failed to bribe the main sound guy they got some roadie (most PA roadies were kind off trainee sound engineers) to do it.
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Old 16th March 2014, 11:47 AM   #34
turk 182 is offline turk 182  Canada
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over several years of touring i've had the opportunity of hearing the likes of Kim Mitchell,The Barenaked Ladies,Burton Cummings,Blue Rodeo,Great Big Sea and many many more through all types of gear Martin,Adamson,JBL,Heil,Apogee,and again so many combinations it's hard to list them all.
in many circumstances all things aligned to allow for the "turtles to dance" and make for a great show right down to the little details like audiophile audio,but in a "live" situation all to many times things go south and everything snowballs into a trainwreck.
a subjective evaluation of "who" played through "what" and "what did you think" in my opinion is of little value other than to make foundations for criticism.it's not a proper evaluation of the gear used or the people involved without including venue,attendance,adequate setup time/sound check and a whole host of factors that can affect the end result.

p.s.: a pet peeve of mine is some audiophile out of the audience come up and says:"my stereo at home sounds better..." or "can't you make it sound more like the album"
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Old 16th March 2014, 01:51 PM   #35
Max Headroom is offline Max Headroom  Australia
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Location: West Australia, near to the beach, natural ambient sounds mostly.
I'm doing follow spot on Rolling Stones show this Thursday night.
I'll see what the sound is like....my Zoom 24/96 recorder will provide the evidence .

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Old 1st April 2014, 05:14 AM   #36
Horn Fanatic is offline Horn Fanatic  United States
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Default P.A. systems...

Greetings folks - A newbie to DIY here.

I'm old school audio, and I couldn't pass up this thread. To understand the unpleasant audio experience of current commercial touring and fixed sound systems, one must consider the genesis of such contraptions.

A time long ago in a galaxy far, far away, ALTEC Lansing, Electro-Voice, and JBL were slugging it out with their theater and stadium systems. It was the little DIY guy who bought raw frame components to build systems that never existed before. Some of them were relegated to using A7's and Shure Vocal Masters, and yes, even Dual Showman cabinets with a Bogen mixer and microphones that were best suited for a radio announcer, while others were starting companies like Tycobrahe, Showco, Stanal Sound, Clair Brothers, and the trail blazers at Alembic who are best remembered for designing the Grateful Dead Wall of Sound. Why it took the big three nearly fifteen years to finally catch on to the trapezoidal enclosure is a real mystery.

Dig this, the high frequency components in the Wall of Sound system consisted of 224 JBL LE5 mid-range speakers, and 72 EV T350 tweeters. No long throw horns were to be found. The FOH system at Woodstock appeared to be ALTEC manufactured horn enclosures, but they weren't. They were designed and built by Bill Hanley.

The components for the most part were the same ones used in consumer audio systems. Low power handling, and high efficiency. Enter the high powered amplifier. The DC300 served it's purpose between smoking drivers, and even the MC2300 and MC2500 for those with strong backs who were intimate with a fork lift. Then Bob Carver stunned the audio world with his game changing Phase Linear 700B power amp. Excuse me, I meant Flame Linear! The name says it all.

Soon after, speaker manufacturers decided to up the game by designing higher power handling drivers, then the amplifier manufacturers began to, well, you know the rest. Now we have 4000 watt cigar box sized amplifiers, bass speakers rated at 2000 watts, and high frequency ring radiator tweeters rated at 600 watts. I shake my head at the thought of a super tweeter designed to handle 600 watts. One watt through one of those things will drill a hole in your head.

Now to the crux of the biscuit. The function of the sound system dejour is less about high fidelity, and more about sound management. By it's very design, the Constant Directivity Horn has two problems; phase coherency and reduced high frequency response. The folks who designed those horns knew this in the beginning, namely Don Keele who is the father of the CD horn, and Cliff Henricksen and Mark Ureda. The objective behind the CD horn was not high fidelity, it was about sound management.

Now to the Line Array. The Line Array effect was known of at least 70 years prior to the introduction of the current systems. Perhaps even Lord Rayleigh new of the effect. They are an amazing mechanism for pattern control, where not long ago pattern control in a linear P.A. enclosure and Bessel Array could be attained by creative wiring between drivers, now it's all done on the fly in real time with microprocessors.

That's all fine and dandy, but from what I've been told by engineers who run those systems, and audience participants, is the sound quality of Line Array systems promote aural fatigue. Some might describe the quality as low fidelity. The moment some engineer evolved the 130A into a 2226, was the end of high fidelity. Thank goodness Bill Hanuschak at Great Plains Audio is still manufacturing the same speakers ALTEC did sixty years ago.

The End

Last edited by Horn Fanatic; 1st April 2014 at 05:42 AM.
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