Compression driver selection & Revision log - Page 2 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Live Sound > PA Systems

PA Systems A forum for discussion of all parts of a sound reinforcement or DJ system: loudspeakers, mixers (desks) etc.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 24th January 2014, 02:55 AM   #11
Speakerholic
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Near Eminence KY
Well then, testing will be easier than I imagined. I own a number of good mic stands and the speakers are already configured for pole mounting, so all that's left to do is create space. Would sound treating parts of the room help lower that certain frequency? I'm still willing to do that.

The event tonight went well. I experienced zero technical hiccups. It is, however, evidently clear the Dayton tweeters will not be able to pass the mark. They were OK. They are usable. I honestly think Dayton designed them with residential use in mind. Vocals were blatantly noticeable. I supply my vocalists with Sennheiser e935 microphones. Beautiful sounding mic. Will never willingly use an SM58 again. The mid-range vocals were reproduced beautifully--So clear--you could really hear the beauty of the microphone in that range. But when it started to cross over into the tweeter, the tweeter honestly ruined the high end. The acoustic guitar sounded clear but a little harsh in the high end. The electric drums actually sounded really good--Amazing in fact for electric drums. I wager they have room to improve. The electric guitar was by-and-large fine, but it didn't have an opportunity to shine. I'll take them to the same venue next week and get second impressions.

One thing I thought of: I'm already using a variable L-pad on the tweeters. Will your frequency tilting resistors be affected by the already present L-pad, or would it be a good idea to integrate them? I can find the level I like and record the values.
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2014, 02:23 PM   #12
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Belleville Ontario, Canada
That's good! Nothing puts speakers to the test like a live concert, there is no hiding any of the flaws, whether it's frequency response, coverage pattern, rattles/noises, power handling etc.
Sound treating your room may help with the response below the gating frequency, but it won't alter the gating frequency itself.
You'll notice large dips/peaks in the bass that are standing waves in the room.
The harshness your talking about is because the Dayton D250P driver is crossed too low for a first order slope.
Looking at the impedance curve you'll want at least a second order if crossing over at 4 kHz.
The driver can play lower but it's getting into an area where the phase starts to change and sound terrible (ie harsh)
Even the little B&C DE120 can play a full octave lower (2 kHz)
The B&C DE250 can play down to 1.6 kHz but not with your horn.

Seriously look at getting the DE120, it will blow you away with how clear, musical, and open it sounds.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg dayton ds50p.JPG (129.2 KB, 88 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2014, 04:08 PM   #13
Speakerholic
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Near Eminence KY
You are seriously tempting me with the DE120! So from what I understand: With my horn, the DE250 playing lower is a moot point. The DE250 is 2db more sensitive, but I will be attenuating regardless so that is virtually a moot point. The DE120 has a neodymium motor which is a plus. The DE120 is less expensive, which is a plus. But the DE120 only has 20 watt power handling RMS? That seems low, is it not? I'm not sure how to calculate power handling after crossovers.

Right now I run both drivers from the same amp. When I make enough money from DJing, I plan to purchase a DriveRack PA2 and Bi-amp the speakers.

Last edited by Thetwinmeister; 24th January 2014 at 04:16 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2014, 04:28 PM   #14
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Belleville Ontario, Canada
Power handling has never been a concern for me, I've used the DE120 with my speakers being fed 340 watts each. My speakers were able to produce around 90 dB SPL is a 500 seat venue, never pushed it further. It seemed like I could go as loud as I wanted. One thing I noticed, and other people commented too, was that I didn't need to push the volume nearly as loud to get the same amount of visceral engagement, when compared to the QSC speakers used before. It may be just as loud but it doesn't seem as loud because the sound is so pure and non-harsh. I also found that I could eliminate all the dynamic compression on the whole mix, because if there was peaks in the transients it didn't bother people, and made for a much more engaging sound with better timing and rhythm from percussion.
Here is a video I forgot that I posted a while back.

Emmanuel Baptist Bloomfield - YouTube

Also these are my speakers in my home playing vinyl.
They have the DE120 in them.

Luxman PD264 Turntable - YouTube
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2014, 06:18 PM   #15
Speakerholic
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Near Eminence KY
That is reassuring. And the DE120 will be fine in my horn with that shallow 4k xo you say? I put the Neo3s back on--As far as I could tell from a youtube video, the DE120 did indeed seem to sound really good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Crowe View Post
I also found that I could eliminate all the dynamic compression on the whole mix, because if there was peaks in the transients it didn't bother people, and made for a much more engaging sound with better timing and rhythm from percussion.
I speak that language! What?? Are you serious? Eliminate all compression? That is quite fantastic!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Crowe View Post
One thing I noticed, and other people commented too, was that I didn't need to push the volume nearly as loud to get the same amount of visceral engagement, when compared to the QSC speakers used before. It may be just as loud but it doesn't seem as loud because the sound is so pure and non-harsh.
Fascinating. After I initially showed my partner DJ these speakers he said "But we can push them louder, right?" and I replied "Dude, that was louder than we've ever preformed at before." Then he said something similar to what you just stated. But that was with the Daytons, lol. Which QSC speakers were you using?
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2014, 04:07 PM   #16
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thetwinmeister View Post
Which B&C driver do you own, conanski?
I own some B&C DE750's, these are large 2" exit drivers that can be crossed really low(800hz) when loaded on an appropriate horn and processed correctly.

I built some big 3-way PA speakers many years ago before I had any analysis tools and configured the mid and hi drivers much like you have with a crossover up around 5khz, to me this produced the most open and natural sounding vocals and with the particular mid driver I finally settled on (an 8" with whizzer) horizontal coverage didn't seem to be too bad. I have since taken another stab at designing the mid-high section of these with a "proper" crossover down around 2-2.5khz but I can't get it to sound anywhere near as good as the original setup, sometimes simple is better.
The big B&C driver also delivers very clear and open vocals which should be expected from a driver that costs $300 I guess, but I'm sure the fact that there is no crossover in the middle of the human vocal range also has a lot to do with it. This driver is deployed in a biamped enclosure with a high power 12" bass/mid and is processed with a DCX2496.. a very usefull tool for the $$ I might add.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2014, 06:49 PM   #17
Speakerholic
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Near Eminence KY
I agree, sometimes simplicity can't be beat. I'm interested in that DCX2496, it has a digital AES/EBU input which is something the DriveRacks lack. If I were to use all analogue interconnects in my DJ setup + a digital soundboard + driverack:

Digital DJ mixer 44.1/16 source-->analogue-->digital soundboard 96/24-->analogue-->digital driverack 96/24-->analogue-->amplifier.

Vs if I could use all digital interconnects, I could convert to analogue at the last step--aka the DCX2496--but without any up-sampling it would remain the low resolution low word depth 44.1/16 and up-sampling is a gimmick. But I don't know if running the low res data through the filters will decrease their "quality." So it may mean re-sampling at some point would be beneficial. Just thinking out loud.

On topic: Dayton manufacturers two compression drivers. They are identical apart from the diaphragm, one being polyimide and one being titanium. It is possible to buy these diaphragms as replacements and even switch out polyimide for titanium. Attached is the impedance curve of the titanium version. It seems to have a lower fs. At $25 a pop, would it be worth the risk of attempting to amend my current drivers? If it doesn't work I'll still have the cost of the B&C ahead of me.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg daytonCD.JPG (77.2 KB, 76 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2014, 08:02 PM   #18
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thetwinmeister View Post
I'm interested in that DCX2496, it has a digital AES/EBU input which is something the DriveRacks lack. If I were to use all analogue interconnects in my DJ setup + a digital soundboard + driverack:
Why do you have another soundboard between your DJ setup and the speakers?

IMO the pluses for the DCX include the fact it doesn't have some of the nuisance features of the DRPA.. the setup wizard, AutoEQ, SubSynth, and stereo linked routing only, and that is does have a a 3rd input, a remote PC interface, a useful amount of delay, and can be configured for almost any routing scheme.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thetwinmeister View Post
if I could use all digital interconnects, I could convert to analogue at the last step--aka the DCX2496--but without any up-sampling it would remain the low resolution low word depth 44.1/16 and up-sampling is a gimmick. But I don't know if running the low res data through the filters will decrease their "quality." So it may mean re-sampling at some point would be beneficial. Just thinking out loud
You're way over thinking this, these processors are not just a basic A/D converter they include advanced anti aliasing and error correction that is very effective at "making up for" less than theoretically perfect input signals.
I have read numerous complaints about residual noise(hiss) with the DCX but it would seem this is because people are using it with equipment that doesn't have balanced I/O interfaces.. mine is dead silent with all balanced interconnects, and there is no audible loss in sound quality with input signals of up to 30db below full scale. The limiting factor these days is not the equipment it's gonna be the source material.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Thetwinmeister View Post
On topic: Dayton manufacturers two compression drivers. They are identical apart from the diaphragm, one being polyimide and one being titanium. It is possible to buy these diaphragms as replacements and even switch out polyimide for titanium. Attached is the impedance curve of the titanium version. It seems to have a lower fs. At $25 a pop, would it be worth the risk of attempting to amend my current drivers? If it doesn't work I'll still have the cost of the B&C ahead of me.
No idea if that swap is possible, there may be subtle differences in the diaphram or the phase plug that aren't obvious in the pictures.

Last edited by conanski; 25th January 2014 at 08:04 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2014, 08:40 PM   #19
Speakerholic
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Near Eminence KY
Quote:
Originally Posted by conanski View Post
Why do you have another soundboard between your DJ setup and the speakers?
It won't always be present, but there will be occasion for both DJing and live sound reinforcement at the same venue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by conanski View Post
You're way over thinking this, these processors are not just a basic A/D converter they include advanced anti aliasing and error correction that is very effective at "making up for" less than theoretically perfect input signals.
I have read numerous complaints about residual noise(hiss) with the DCX but it would seem this is because people are using it with equipment that doesn't have balanced I/O interfaces.. mine is dead silent with all balanced interconnects, and there is no audible loss in sound quality with input signals of up to 30db below full scale. The limiting factor these days is not the equipment it's gonna be the source material.
This is good to know. I will be using fully balanced all the way, so I should not have a problem. I did more reading on the DCX, looks like I will have no issues either way as you said, it has a built in up-sampler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by conanski View Post
No idea if that swap is possible, there may be subtle differences in the diaphram or the phase plug that aren't obvious in the pictures.
Dayton claims it is, so I sure hope it is. The more I consider it, the less I like the idea of being stuck with two unuseful things. I will buy the DE120 right away.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2014, 10:37 PM   #20
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Belleville Ontario, Canada
The QSC speakers that are currently in use are HPR-122i.

QSC HPR122i 12" 2-Way Powered Multipurpose Loudspeaker | Musician's Friend
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
cheap B&C NEO compression driver seanny Multi-Way 1 28th May 2012 07:30 AM
B&C Compression Driver and Horns warnsey Multi-Way 270 9th November 2008 09:33 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 08:17 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2