The vocal mic into a guitar pedal problem - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Live Sound > PA Systems

PA Systems A forum for discussion of all parts of a sound reinforcement or DJ system: loudspeakers, mixers (desks) etc.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 5th December 2013, 03:48 AM   #1
tony2zs is offline tony2zs  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Chicago
Default The vocal mic into a guitar pedal problem

I was wondering if anyone on here knows a good way to solve the problem of singers using guitar pedals for vocal effects In a live setting. For example, a 58 with a 1/4 adaptor going into a boss delay pedal coming out into a DI. The output is always low, noisy, compressed. Is it just an impedance issue? Does anyone know of a product or built anything to help with this problem?
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2013, 06:45 AM   #2
Enzo is offline Enzo  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lansing, Michigan
Try putting the effect pedal in the insert loop on the mic channel of the mixer.

Or use aq mic preamp to boost the signal before the effect.


A large part of the problem is that the signal leaving the microphone is less than 1/10 the amount of signal leaving a guitar. That means you have to turn things up to get levels, and the signal is much closer to the noise floor than a guitar would be.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2013, 03:13 PM   #3
tony2zs is offline tony2zs  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Chicago
Enzo,

Thanks for your response. I have had good luck with running pedals through the desk like an outboard effect, but there is never enough time to do that for every artist. Also many artist are starting to bring their own effects so they can change the parameters of the effect as the performance unfolds, so they need to have access to the unit. It's not unusual that i am mixing 4 different bands in a night with each band having 2 or 3 singers all running vocals through guitar pedals. The result is me spending all my time trying to get level in the monitors, fighting feedback and artist grief with little time to actually perfect the mix. I need a silver bullet device that can be set up very quickly. One that can match the impedance and boost signal without distortion to send to a DI.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2013, 04:26 PM   #4
Enzo is offline Enzo  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lansing, Michigan
Imagine you are a busy restaurant. All of a sudden a group of people start coming in for dinner. One is peanut intolerant, another eats only Kosher and his friend only halal. Two are vegans. ANother allergic to strawberries, and throw in a few others, what the heck. WOuld your kitchen be able to cover all those things? WOuld there be one magic dish that would cover them all?

If you knew specifics ahead of time it would not be difficult to cover all those. But at the spur of the moment?

So I applaud your desire to be instantly ready for all comers, but perhaps we ought to make some ground rules for special microphone processing, so we can be ready. Perhaps if the signer wants to use the same pedal for both vocals and guitar - at different times during the set - it is time to have two of the pedals. One for him and one for the mixer. Now there will be no fumbling on the stage floor between songs, no scrambling at the mixer to set it up.


And you are a professional soundman? OK, they guy wants to use his Boss delay on the mic? Is it really so unique you cannot offer a delay from the mixer FX that does the same? If he needs to match tempo, can he not trust you to catch the timing?

SOmetimes the band has to meet you in the middle. Van Halen and Led Zeppelin can demand certain color M&Ms or bottled water. I have to think your four bands a night guys are not quite at that level yet.

Are the two or three singers with FX pedal vocals using the same type FX units? In other words you might be able to use one FX unit for all of them. Maybe free up an AUX or even a sub group, and run that through an FX pedal, and when it is needed, flip over to that AUX instead of direct into mix.


And as I suggested, try a mic pre. There are small inexpensive ones like the ART, Behringer, or similar. They start under $50. Put one between mic and pedal, and it ought to raise signal level to something more useful to the pedal. of course the signal leaving the pedal might be hotter now, so be ready to deal with that.

I just looked at selection at Sweetwater. Search mic preamp, single channel, sort by price. I am sure Musicians Friend has similar selection.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2013, 02:13 PM   #5
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
this is an alarming new trend i've ran into. the worse is when the artist insists on a setup where his main vocal is indeed routed through this device (distortion pedal) through all manner of adapter and/or radio shack matching transformer and then starts complaining that his "straight vocal sound should be better and that his distorted sound needs to be louder"
i insist on a "y" split so that at all times i have the original vocal at the main mix desk i take the output of the effect and return it to another channel and duck the dry vocal level during the segments (not the best solution in terms total control of dry vs effect) but in most cases is a better compromise.

p.s. with the right adaptors you can convert a snake channel into an insert extension to the stage!

Last edited by turk 182; 8th December 2013 at 02:26 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2013, 03:35 PM   #6
diyAudio Member
 
Passinwind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Columbia River Gorge, Washington
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony2zs View Post
I was wondering if anyone on here knows a good way to solve the problem of singers using guitar pedals for vocal effects In a live setting. For example, a 58 with a 1/4 adaptor going into a boss delay pedal coming out into a DI. The output is always low, noisy, compressed. Is it just an impedance issue? Does anyone know of a product or built anything to help with this problem?
When I was still doing live sound I would sometimes suggest that the miscreant buy a small format mixer and send me both clean and effected signals. I also saw guys use a separate mic for effected vocals, so a wet one and a dry one next to each other, and some exercising of the mute buttons for me.
__________________
-- Charlie Escher

Last edited by Passinwind; 8th December 2013 at 03:37 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2013, 04:16 PM   #7
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brighton UK
Hi,

You need a standard microphone transformer to drive the pedal.

Click the image to open in full size.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hosa-MIT-176...-/360778374981

Click the image to open in full size.

Usually 500 ohm to 50K ohm, i.e. x10 voltage step up ratio.

rgds, sreten.
__________________
There is nothing so practical as a really good theory - Ludwig Boltzmann
When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail - Abraham Maslow

Last edited by sreten; 8th December 2013 at 04:21 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2013, 08:32 PM   #8
dheming is offline dheming  United States
diyAudio Member
 
dheming's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bay Area, CA
Have you seen the Radial Voco-Loco: Radial Engineering Debuts Voco-Loco Vocal Preamp and Effects Loop : SonicScoop Creative, Technical & Business Connections For NYC?s Music & Sound Community
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2013, 11:55 AM   #9
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
send me a dozen voco loco please!
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th January 2014, 03:37 PM   #10
Jsixis is offline Jsixis  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Columbus Ohio
your bringing back nightmares of when I first started running sound.
I wised up, put out a simple set of rules and guess what.
I got better clients, made enough money to actually upgrade my gear and had a better time running sound.
Still once the PA was paid for I quit running sound gigs.
__________________
I know nothing, so learning is really awesome.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Help to mod guitar pedal for bass guitar kalin1981 Instruments and Amps 1 10th December 2012 12:59 PM
I need help on a Simple guitar/vocal pre amp. Redfoxfur Tubes / Valves 13 13th December 2007 12:44 AM
Is there a bass/guitar/vocal amp? DeadSpeaker Solid State 0 24th July 2007 05:41 PM
Guitar Pedal Glowin Plates Instruments and Amps 7 9th March 2005 05:16 AM
DC powered guitar/vocal amplifier Lawrence Chip Amps 3 14th July 2003 04:22 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:10 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2