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Old 9th November 2012, 08:53 PM   #11
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PASY View Post
any idea for the driver?
bigger high efficient fullrange
but big wont fit a small box


Quote:
Originally Posted by PASY View Post
for the bass... I will probably make a subwoofer later...
why ?
I dont understand
you want it small and portable, and insist on small inefficient stereo speakers
and now you plan to build a sub
and you play ancient windinstruments
Im confused now
what is your main goal ?
a nice home stereo ?
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Old 10th November 2012, 01:11 PM   #12
PASY is offline PASY  Canada
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My main goal is what I said first. small, portable...
To be precise, I want to build a small powered (or not, but individual amp for each cabinet) stage monitors that I can use seperately if I need and that I can upgrade. I think that's the cool thing with building things, you can upgrade it! So if I need more bass for any reason, I'll build a subwoofer...I really don't need one now but right now, I want this project to be "simple" but effective. And I want does speakers to be able to fill a room with approx 50-60 people.
So, you don't think that if I use a 6,5" full range driver it will be enough... 8"? Behringer use a 5" driver in their B205D...
Thanks a lot for your help!
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Old 10th November 2012, 03:47 PM   #13
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Avec le choix des instruments, si on n'as pas de bombarde ou équivalent - pardon, j'aivais vu "Quebec"…

With the instruments you have, assuming you don't use one of the contrabassoon style woodwinds, there is no need for extended bass response, so shall drivers are not a major limitation. Their efficiency can be, with careful choice, as high as their larger brethren, in the mids and highs, and they have the advantage of less "beaming" (narrowing of the usable diffusion angle with increasing frequency).

I've done a number of small-room gigs on some little Montabos with six and a half inch full range drivers (admittedly, there were five of them); the trick is to place them high and aimed down, so the energy isn't all being absorbed by the front row.

Is there any reason to make them battery powered? The batteries are going to weigh as much as a power transformer, not last as long and not give any advantage in power stabilisation. If you're not going to busk outdoors or play off the back of a carnival float I'd say traditional transformer, rectifier, smoothing cap, not even a stabiliser.

Main problems are going to be feedback, total level and directionality (do you need to hear these things, to judge your performance/miking, or are the just for the audience? If you do, it's going to complicate the feedback problems). Total level is very subjective, and dependent on audience factors (particularly sobriety), directionality's always going to be wrong; the more individual speakers you're carrying, the better you can compensate, given setup time (I hear the screams of anguish from the purists explaining phase shift and interference, and it's all true; but having sound, even notch-filtered and lobey over your entire audience region is generally more useful than impeccable sound over a small portion of it).

Why didn't the Behringer work? Was it faulty, or did it have a particular problem?

No, I wouldn't do it quite like that, personally. I'd use an electronic crossover and biamp, with a tweeter, so as to have a control over the directionality of the highs, and a sophisticated equaliser to notch out feedback frequencies (you should have one in your computer plugins, but at what latency delay?), slow attack peak limiters and overvoltage amps (acoustic instruments often produce peaks many times their continuous power) and a miniature analog mixing console, which I might well build myself, perhaps experiment with some clip-on mics (your Audio-Technicas are more quality than feedback rejection)… but you use what you've got.

Don't worry too much about stereo, think more of independent zone control. Even assuming you can place the speakers for adequate distribution, which is not going to happen very often, how are you intending to do stereo miking with that set up? Practical details like screw threads to attach them to mic stands, and attachment points for "flying hardware" (bits of string by which you can attach them to the ceiling, and aim them at the audience rather than a blank wall) are often more important than the absolute quality of the drivers.
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Old 10th November 2012, 04:06 PM   #14
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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My main goal is what I said first.
Behringer use a 5" driver in their B205D...
Thanks a lot for your help!
dont know Behringer

I suggested the Fane 12" fullrange
I have looked for other options, none
at least not on a limited budget

maybe a small passive 2way studio monitor
but not to ruin the sound of fine instruments you need a really good one
not long ago someone presented one with 10" woofer and a horn
might work well for you
good luck
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Old 10th November 2012, 04:08 PM   #15
PASY is offline PASY  Canada
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Wow! On parle français sur ce forum!
Il y a beaucoup d'éléments dans ta réponse. Merci!

Mon anglais est loin d'être parfait... par "powered" je voulais dire un caisson avec ampli intégré.
Crois-tu que Je pourrais obtenir un bon résultat avec des Fostex FE166En 6.5" full range? Je crois comprendre que tu prévilégierais la quantité de haut-parleur (caisson) à la grosseur des drivers...??? Je voudrais utiliser des fullrange drivers parce que ça me semble beaucoup plus simple à fabriquer... peut-être pas à réussir...
Pour ce qui est des amplis pour chacun des caissons on m'a parlé de TDA2003 tu connais?
20W Bridged Audio Amplifier - Cana Kit
Est-ce un bon mix haut-parleur vs ampli?
Mon problème avec le caisson de Behringer est qu'il ne peut être amélioré... J'aime bien retravailler sur mes projets, les améliorer...
Merci encore de ta réponse.
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Old 10th November 2012, 07:27 PM   #16
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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translation

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Wow! French is spoken on this forum!
There are many elements in your answer. Thank you!

My English is far from perfect ... by "powered" I mean a box with integrated amplifier.
Do you think I could get a good result with Fostex FE166En 6.5 "full range? I understand that the amount you prévilégierais speaker (subwoofer) to the size of the drivers ...?? I would use fullrange drivers because it seems much easier to make ... maybe not succeed ...
Regarding amps for each of the boxes I spoke TDA2003 you know?
20W Audio Amplifier Bridged - Cana Kit
Is it a good mix vs speaker amp?
My problem with the Behringer box is that it can be improved ... I like to rework my projects, improve ...
Thank you again for your answer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PASY View Post
Wow! On parle français sur ce forum!
Il y a beaucoup d'éléments dans ta réponse. Merci!

Mon anglais est loin d'être parfait... par "powered" je voulais dire un caisson avec ampli intégré.
Crois-tu que Je pourrais obtenir un bon résultat avec des Fostex FE166En 6.5" full range? Je crois comprendre que tu prévilégierais la quantité de haut-parleur (caisson) à la grosseur des drivers...??? Je voudrais utiliser des fullrange drivers parce que ça me semble beaucoup plus simple à fabriquer... peut-être pas à réussir...
Pour ce qui est des amplis pour chacun des caissons on m'a parlé de TDA2003 tu connais?
20W Bridged Audio Amplifier - Cana Kit
Est-ce un bon mix haut-parleur vs ampli?
Mon problème avec le caisson de Behringer est qu'il ne peut être amélioré... J'aime bien retravailler sur mes projets, les améliorer...
Merci encore de ta réponse.
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Old 10th November 2012, 07:30 PM   #17
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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PASY, please post in english
or a translation on special matters you find too difficult in english


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Old 10th November 2012, 08:26 PM   #18
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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LPI CABS_SL112M 12" Multi Angle Stage Monitor Wedge
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Old 10th November 2012, 08:44 PM   #19
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Mais non, c'est un illusion. Il y a bien des françaises sur le site, mais moi je suis resolument anglophone.

Oui, 'powered loudspeaker' c'est précisement ça, un enceint amplifié.

Alors, je suis allé chercher les détails sur l' haut parleur Fostex, et ça a l'air d'être conçu pour le hi-fi, pas pour le sono. A 94 dB sensibilité, c'est bas; j'aurais préféré au moins trois de plus (équivalent à doubler l'ampli de puissance). Un aimant relativement lourd, le 'basket' en acier pressé, le membrane avec surround en ?caochouc? bass resonance (OK, mais 53 Hz est bas pour un membrane aussi petit), tout dit maison pas la route.

Malhereusement j'ai été enfermer dans un studio d'enregistrement pendant ces vingt dernières années, et je ne suis plus vraiment au courant sur ce qu'on trouve comme moteur maintenant. Avec le profusion des colonnes 'line array', on devrait trouver les hp d'une rendement plus élévé, un résonance autour des 80Hz (couvrira bien les flûtes a bec, des cors anglaises, crumhorns, des shawms…).

Translation follows.

Yes, Powered loudspeaker is exactly that, a cabinet with built-in amplifier.

I looked for the details of the Fostex driver, and it seems designed fot hifi, not PA. At 94 dB (1W 1M) it's not very sensitive, and not high enough power to compensate by driving harder, either) I'd have preferred at least 3dB more (equivalent to doubling the power amp). A fairly heavy magnet, a pressed steel basket, a relatively low resonance cone (I know, 53 Hz is hardly a subwoofer, but suggests a rather heavy cone for that size, always nehative for midrange efficiency), all things that are going to tend to go out of line if the cabinet is dropped or falls over with its stand, all shout domestic, not road use.

Unfortunately I've been locked up in a recording studio for the last twenty years, and am a bit out of touch as to what drivers are available, but with the profusion of 'line array' systems available there should be some tough, high efficiency, roadworthy small units, with a resonance around 80 Hz, fine for most woodwinds.

Ah, l'ampli. Oui, ce n'est pas très puissant; j'aurais préferé un peu plus de voltage en réserve. Deux amplis comme ça en série, avec alimentation séparé? (sorte de pont des ponts; pas facile a faire des entrées sauf avec un transformateur). Mais, sans faire les experiences, je ne peut pas dire combien de puissance vous avez besoin.

So, the amplifier; not very powerful. I'd have preferred a bit more reserve voltage; perhaps two of them run in series, a sort of bridged bridge (with separate floating power supplies; bit difficult to get the signal in without an input transformer.


Sorry, tinitus, my bad; I should have put a smiley on my first post, to make it clear I wasn't serious. But the matching of cabinet size with driver had nothing to do with the subwoofer which might be added later, and the Behringer is rejected because it can't be tinkered with and improved, not that there is room for improvement.


Added Yea, sure, you could take that cab and add an amp (you'd want something a bit more powerful than we were talking about until now, which means heavier, unless you go for a switch mode power supply, an option). But it's a lot heavier and generally more difficult to lug around. Safer, though. Actually, I'd probably put the amps elsewhere, and run speaker wire (but replace the jack connector), just to keep the weight down if you're going to have to fly them.

Oui, bien sur vous pouvez prendre cette colonne et rajouter un ampli de puissance (un peut plu grand qu'on était en train de régarder, qui veut dire plus lourd, sauf si on utilise un alimentation a découpage, une possibilité). Vous aurez quelquechose nettement plus serieux, mais plus encombrant et lourd. Je crois que moi, je mettrai les amplis dans une boite à part, pour lasser les colonnes le plus legères possibles, si jamais on voudrez les suréléver, et passer du cable HP (mais changer la prise jack).

Last edited by chrispenycate; 10th November 2012 at 09:04 PM. Reason: Saw previous post
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Old 10th November 2012, 09:33 PM   #20
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...... amp....you'd want something a bit more powerful than we were talking about until now

.........heavier and generally more difficult to lug around.

Actually, I'd probably put the amps elsewhere.......
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