Hi guys, ive currently got two 12inch Delta 12a drivers with some cheap compression horn tweeters handling top speaker duties, holding hands with a pair of SS15 Jbell horns loaded with JB1500N drivers.
now, heres where i think im at.
the SS15s do an amazing job at the bass. im well and truly happy with how they sound, i just want more!! but thats not the problem.
my tops are smooth, clear and sound great. but when i turn them right up loud, i cant get them to stay sounding smooth, they seem to need a lot of EQ correction to make them listenable at war volume. and then they just sound flat and lifeless...
so what im wondering, is if i just let them handle from say, 1000hz+ and fill that gap from SS15@80hz > delta @ 1000hz with a lascala clone???
i dont have much in the way of drivers here right now, but what i do have is a pair of 10inch and a pair of 8inch drivers.
what im thinking, is set them up/build them to suit a later upgrade of a bigger driver, but fitup the smaller ones initially, and to be a dual driver cab. so double height. (the stock LS happens to be the perfect width for my top cabs to sit on top of)
so the LS is designed to take a 15 yes? would a 10 in the bottom playing ~100>500 and then an 8 playing from ~100-1000 be of much use to let the deltas chill a bit? until i can afford to get some decent 15inch drivers in there?
i have a feeling im gonna get told just to wait and put the kick cabs together when i can afford to, but thats something ive never been able to do. everything ive done so far has been in stages, and each time the stage gets competed, it makes me more happy with it... so, ultimately i know sticking random drivers in isnt ideal, but its what i think i need atm to "help" the deltas.
open to suggestions.
setup gets used mostly for pop/rnb/dance music. but when its used for MY enjoyment, it gets Psytrance/hard style/trance and some dubstep played through
it.
thanks
now, heres where i think im at.
the SS15s do an amazing job at the bass. im well and truly happy with how they sound, i just want more!! but thats not the problem.
my tops are smooth, clear and sound great. but when i turn them right up loud, i cant get them to stay sounding smooth, they seem to need a lot of EQ correction to make them listenable at war volume. and then they just sound flat and lifeless...
so what im wondering, is if i just let them handle from say, 1000hz+ and fill that gap from SS15@80hz > delta @ 1000hz with a lascala clone???
i dont have much in the way of drivers here right now, but what i do have is a pair of 10inch and a pair of 8inch drivers.
what im thinking, is set them up/build them to suit a later upgrade of a bigger driver, but fitup the smaller ones initially, and to be a dual driver cab. so double height. (the stock LS happens to be the perfect width for my top cabs to sit on top of)
so the LS is designed to take a 15 yes? would a 10 in the bottom playing ~100>500 and then an 8 playing from ~100-1000 be of much use to let the deltas chill a bit? until i can afford to get some decent 15inch drivers in there?
i have a feeling im gonna get told just to wait and put the kick cabs together when i can afford to, but thats something ive never been able to do. everything ive done so far has been in stages, and each time the stage gets competed, it makes me more happy with it... so, ultimately i know sticking random drivers in isnt ideal, but its what i think i need atm to "help" the deltas.
open to suggestions.
setup gets used mostly for pop/rnb/dance music. but when its used for MY enjoyment, it gets Psytrance/hard style/trance and some dubstep played through
it.
thanks
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I think nobody responded because what you are trying to do is a bit wordy and long,
I will try to help with what I think you are trying to do.
After playing with horns and direct radiators for about 30 years I would have to say no direct radiator can beat a horn if the horn is a good design with flat frequency response. Not to say people aren't getting amazing sound with direct radiators but
I still think the an all horn loaded system has an effortless presence when done right can edge out any direct radiator.
That said nothing sounds as bad and painful as a poorly designed horn on a big cheap solid state amp.
Check out what this guy has done with horns. He has alot of info and even a mini Lascala that goes down to 100hz.
Generally you do not want to use a folded horn above 500hz, about 500hz you want a straight horn for sure.
http://www.volvotreter.de/old_system.htm
http://www.volvotreter.de/downloads/lascala10inch.pdf
I will try to help with what I think you are trying to do.
After playing with horns and direct radiators for about 30 years I would have to say no direct radiator can beat a horn if the horn is a good design with flat frequency response. Not to say people aren't getting amazing sound with direct radiators but
I still think the an all horn loaded system has an effortless presence when done right can edge out any direct radiator.
That said nothing sounds as bad and painful as a poorly designed horn on a big cheap solid state amp.
Check out what this guy has done with horns. He has alot of info and even a mini Lascala that goes down to 100hz.
Generally you do not want to use a folded horn above 500hz, about 500hz you want a straight horn for sure.
http://www.volvotreter.de/old_system.htm
http://www.volvotreter.de/downloads/lascala10inch.pdf
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A few suggestions:
- Your cheap compression drivers are probably falling apart in the midrange at high volumes. Consider an upgrade to something like a selenium D220ti
- In my limited experience with PA speakers, I find that they are not nearly inert in the cabinet as good hifi speakers, causing the sound to sort of fall apart at the higher volumes PA speaker are used at. Consider additional internal damping, bracing and stuffing to your mains.
- Are you running time correction on your mains to delay them to match up with the SS15's? Because the tapped horns have a baseline group delay at crossover that will cause funky cancellations in the midbass and a clear lack of attack. Try the system outside and physically move the subs ~4-6 feet in front of the mains, and don't use EQ. Also experiment with lower order crossover slopes, if you have the option, but this may not be effective considering the tapped horn.
It seems that kick bins are fairly popular with the UK sound system guys, but you have to consider these are used in massive, refined systems with multiple large subs and large mid-horns which do actually leave a small gap in the kick region when used together. The pair of delta-12's should have no problem keeping up with the ss15's above 120hz if implemented well.
You will have to try and contact the "Volvotreter" guy over in Europe, I don't know him and I have not heard the mini LaScala but it is a neat little speaker.
I just put the link up because it was relevant to the discussion.
LaScala is designed for a 15" woofer not a 12" and yes is should have quite a bit more output than almost any direct radiator form 100-500 when you use a pro woofer like an EV15L or JBL with a light cone big magnet, even with low powered stock Klipsch K33 the output is pretty good but I would not recommend K33 for today's sound reinforcement gigs.
Don't use a Klipsch K33 unless you are putting no more than 100 watts of clean non clipping amp power in to it and the sound is loud enough for the gig you are doing (it probably won't be loud enough unless you are doing light acoustic acts or very small dj gigs, because of power compression by the end of the night, a friend actually caught a K33 on fire trying to use it on a PA system)
I would have liked to have seen that! Quite a spectacle, flames and smoke coming out of a speaker box!
Horns are being used a little more in today's world because people are starting to figure out that trying to put over 1000 watts in to a single 15" mid bass from 100-500hz you will have to use a big heavy cone and voice coil and the efficiency is really low.
Also then as the night moves on you experience the dreaded power compression, your system looses (a lot!) of output and sounds dull because your poor woofer usually has a hard time dissipating all that 1000 watts of power regardless of what the manufacturer says it can handle. No your 15" direct radiator probably won't blow but most manufacturers don't talk about power compression.
Jbl is one of the few exceptions that talk about power compression and the reason the 2226 has been such a successful woofer is all the research they did to stop the power compression on it. Look at JBL's data sheets on the 2226 woofer, it is impressive.
Funny how the very, very old and very efficient JBL 2220 has almost as much output as a 2226 running its full 600 watts when the JBL 2220 is only running 150-200 watts! (Although 2220 does not have the sophisticated venting system of the 2226 it does not need as much venting at such low power levels.)
I think an ultimate 15" horn mid bass driver would be a 2226 frame with a light weight stiff non ribbed cone (like the 2220), if you could get a reconer to do a Frankenstein for you.
Key to Klipsch sound versus Altec, Tad, JBL
You have hit on the key difference of why people have been drawn in to the Klipsch heritage speaker sound for so many years versus early, Altec, Tad, JBL high two way high efficiency speakers.
Early Altec, Tad, JBL, two ways tried to stretch their drivers response out, generally 5 octaves per driver. They could almost got away with it , using higher quality drivers than Klipsch....as I said almost.
Most of the better early speakers used 3 ways in my opinion so each driver would not have as much distortion, beaming and ragged frequency response.
So unless you were crossover wiz, in that case you designed your own passive crossover for Altec, JBL, TAD's or you used an electronic crossover/eq to make the early two way designs work in most cases and then you really don't want to do high power with all that eq in my opinion as you have found out.
Klipsch on the other hand stuck to the "3 octave per driver" minimal or no eq , a very great rule of thumb that even holds true today with all the supposed "new" technology.
By using not much more than 3 octaves (double the frequency is one octave, so 100-200 is one octave, 200-400 is a second octave, etc.) Klipsch could use much lower cost drivers. (although the use of phenolic diaphragms on the Klipsch is also a huge difference between metal diaphragmed Altec, Tad, JBL and Klipsch Heritage speakers.)
For the volume you are doing the D220i will blow at 1200hz eventually, even though 1200hz works fine at home. (I know because I have blown d220i's at 1200hz in live situations it and I am pretty careful) I would highly recommend you find a very beefy 1.4-2" throat driver with 3" voice coil that can go from 800- all the way on up.
You will probably need a little boost at the top but not much with todays drivers. Constant Directivity horns all need a small amount of specific boost to work correctly any way so you may look in to an electronic crossover with CD boost built in and you will be done.
Check out the frequency response graphs of the drivers before you buy, some 2" driver with 4" diaphragms need quite a bit of boost on the top and really should only be considered mid drivers because you through away all that efficiency away of a 4" coil trying to boost the top.
Probably a 1.4"-2" throat driver with a 3" diaphragm would be perfect for you if you are not using a mid/super tweeter. Although a 1.4"-2" driver with 3" coil is still a little pricey, getting the extra drivers, amps and 4 way crossover to run it all, the 3" vc drivers will still probably be cheaper in the long run doing a 3 way with proper drivers and crossover points than the full blown 4 way and the extra expense and complexity. (I love 4 way systems if you can swing it, they can be amazing if done right.)
Oh yeah one more thing, make sure you like the horn you get for your 1.4"-2" driver and the mouth cutoff is a little lower than the crossover point, it is really important for the horn to be a good design as the horn is doing so many octaves.
It is hard to recommend anything specific in drivers and horns not knowing your budget and needs but I would say a 60 degree dispersion is too narrow for a single horn in a Pa system.
If you are using a folded horn mid bass like the LaScala, you are going to need to a 4 way system for modern pa and throw out what I just told you. Ok I'm stopping now....
You have hit on the key difference of why people have been drawn in to the Klipsch heritage speaker sound for so many years versus early, Altec, Tad, JBL high two way high efficiency speakers.
Early Altec, Tad, JBL, two ways tried to stretch their drivers response out, generally 5 octaves per driver. They could almost got away with it , using higher quality drivers than Klipsch....as I said almost.
Most of the better early speakers used 3 ways in my opinion so each driver would not have as much distortion, beaming and ragged frequency response.
So unless you were crossover wiz, in that case you designed your own passive crossover for Altec, JBL, TAD's or you used an electronic crossover/eq to make the early two way designs work in most cases and then you really don't want to do high power with all that eq in my opinion as you have found out.
Klipsch on the other hand stuck to the "3 octave per driver" minimal or no eq , a very great rule of thumb that even holds true today with all the supposed "new" technology.
By using not much more than 3 octaves (double the frequency is one octave, so 100-200 is one octave, 200-400 is a second octave, etc.) Klipsch could use much lower cost drivers. (although the use of phenolic diaphragms on the Klipsch is also a huge difference between metal diaphragmed Altec, Tad, JBL and Klipsch Heritage speakers.)
For the volume you are doing the D220i will blow at 1200hz eventually, even though 1200hz works fine at home. (I know because I have blown d220i's at 1200hz in live situations it and I am pretty careful) I would highly recommend you find a very beefy 1.4-2" throat driver with 3" voice coil that can go from 800- all the way on up.
You will probably need a little boost at the top but not much with todays drivers. Constant Directivity horns all need a small amount of specific boost to work correctly any way so you may look in to an electronic crossover with CD boost built in and you will be done.
Check out the frequency response graphs of the drivers before you buy, some 2" driver with 4" diaphragms need quite a bit of boost on the top and really should only be considered mid drivers because you through away all that efficiency away of a 4" coil trying to boost the top.
Probably a 1.4"-2" throat driver with a 3" diaphragm would be perfect for you if you are not using a mid/super tweeter. Although a 1.4"-2" driver with 3" coil is still a little pricey, getting the extra drivers, amps and 4 way crossover to run it all, the 3" vc drivers will still probably be cheaper in the long run doing a 3 way with proper drivers and crossover points than the full blown 4 way and the extra expense and complexity. (I love 4 way systems if you can swing it, they can be amazing if done right.)
Oh yeah one more thing, make sure you like the horn you get for your 1.4"-2" driver and the mouth cutoff is a little lower than the crossover point, it is really important for the horn to be a good design as the horn is doing so many octaves.
It is hard to recommend anything specific in drivers and horns not knowing your budget and needs but I would say a 60 degree dispersion is too narrow for a single horn in a Pa system.
If you are using a folded horn mid bass like the LaScala, you are going to need to a 4 way system for modern pa and throw out what I just told you. Ok I'm stopping now....
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wow thanks for all that info 
I havent upfated this thread due to moving house and phone-only internet but i fitted a behringer active two way XO into my rig and that made a pretty massive difference. Took the muddy out of the deltas. The go quite a bit louder and get quite slappy which is what i was looking for.
Still obviously not loud enought to truly compete with the 4xSS15s but i wont actually know that till i get the system outside on the 21st december.
Last gig was 17th nov and it was in the indoor basketball courts and sounded quite reasonable once people started filling it up.
So in general im quite happy with it . But soon im going to be replacing my analogue EQ and XO with a miniDSP a friend showed me.
I havent upfated this thread due to moving house and phone-only internet but i fitted a behringer active two way XO into my rig and that made a pretty massive difference. Took the muddy out of the deltas. The go quite a bit louder and get quite slappy which is what i was looking for.
Still obviously not loud enought to truly compete with the 4xSS15s but i wont actually know that till i get the system outside on the 21st december.
Last gig was 17th nov and it was in the indoor basketball courts and sounded quite reasonable once people started filling it up.
So in general im quite happy with it . But soon im going to be replacing my analogue EQ and XO with a miniDSP a friend showed me.
Glad to help, there is so much bad sound in the world and it is actually pretty easy to get decent sound if you know a few of the basics like I just described.
If you have control of each driver with the mini dsp you described you should be able to work a minor miracle.
I actually still like high end analog only processing for the absolute best sound but at the level of analog gear you have, generally the DSP processors at the same price level are quite a bit better than the low cost analog, especially the 3 way Behringer DCX2496 DSP processor, it is definitely better to my ears than the equivalent Behringer analog crossover and eq.
Plus DCX2496 it has 48 db slopes so your system will be able to get way louder than you ever imagined as you saw what happened with just the 24 db two way crossover. You may be a lot closer to keeping up with your subs using 48db and a true 3 way electronic crossover, although 48 db can be a little weird sounding at first and you may need a little help dialing it in, I think it is worth it.
Also try to remember when ever possible keep the voice coils of your drivers as close in a line as you can for better time alignment and more clear image. The tweeter on all the Klipsch heritage speakers is way out of time alignment and it really bothers me, although some people don't care as much.
I tell you with most DSP's we have today I have been able to make quite poor sounding drivers actually usable and not hurt peoples ears, like I said, a minor miracle.
Good luck, you are on the right track to getting a crankin' loud and clear system and I think you are going to be really happy when you get everything dialed in with you new DSP.
If you have control of each driver with the mini dsp you described you should be able to work a minor miracle.
I actually still like high end analog only processing for the absolute best sound but at the level of analog gear you have, generally the DSP processors at the same price level are quite a bit better than the low cost analog, especially the 3 way Behringer DCX2496 DSP processor, it is definitely better to my ears than the equivalent Behringer analog crossover and eq.
Plus DCX2496 it has 48 db slopes so your system will be able to get way louder than you ever imagined as you saw what happened with just the 24 db two way crossover. You may be a lot closer to keeping up with your subs using 48db and a true 3 way electronic crossover, although 48 db can be a little weird sounding at first and you may need a little help dialing it in, I think it is worth it.
Also try to remember when ever possible keep the voice coils of your drivers as close in a line as you can for better time alignment and more clear image. The tweeter on all the Klipsch heritage speakers is way out of time alignment and it really bothers me, although some people don't care as much.
I tell you with most DSP's we have today I have been able to make quite poor sounding drivers actually usable and not hurt peoples ears, like I said, a minor miracle.
Good luck, you are on the right track to getting a crankin' loud and clear system and I think you are going to be really happy when you get everything dialed in with you new DSP.
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Take a look at my findings at Doctor Boar; DIY loudspeakers and HiFi
I have tested a 12" driven La Scala and the widest bandwith is with quite high Q low Fr drivers, highest effiency was with the classical high Fr low Q. Surprisingly the bass horn works way over the calculated mass roll off.
Active crossovers are good
I have tested a 12" driven La Scala and the widest bandwith is with quite high Q low Fr drivers, highest effiency was with the classical high Fr low Q. Surprisingly the bass horn works way over the calculated mass roll off.
Active crossovers are good
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