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Old 11th July 2012, 10:52 PM   #11
mdocod is offline mdocod  United States
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The best sound you will get from them without many changes, is if you stick with an active and steep crossover, set the crossover to 1500-2000hz, adjust phase to get constructive coupling through the crossover at the listening position, try with just 2 units, and slap a big fat heavy gage inductor in series with the lower woofer of each. Like 5-10mH value. If you must use all 4, flip the second set upsidedown on top of the first set, so that the tweeters are as close together as possible, the second set should also have it's "lower" (now upper, as it's inverted) woofer in series with the bigfatso inductor.

Regards,
Eric
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Old 11th July 2012, 11:25 PM   #12
djlivex is offline djlivex  United States
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Sakis I am not trying to offend you or give a bad advise those 15" woofers you have are made in China at $25 each no where near a JBL or Peavey league. You need to actively cross and be done with it. And RTA your speakers so you can hear and see whats happening. 800 people outside with 4 of those and you have not blown one component is amazing.
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Old 12th July 2012, 11:58 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djlivex View Post
Sakis I am not trying to offend you or give a bad advise those 15" woofers you have are made in China at $25 each no where near a JBL or Peavey league. You need to actively cross and be done with it. And RTA your speakers so you can hear and see whats happening. 800 people outside with 4 of those and you have not blown one component is amazing.

you have no idea what are you talking about .....
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Old 12th July 2012, 12:27 PM   #14
Xoc1 is offline Xoc1  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by mdocod View Post
The best sound you will get from them without many changes, is if you stick with an active and steep crossover, set the crossover to 1500-2000hz, adjust phase to get constructive coupling through the crossover at the listening position, try with just 2 units, and slap a big fat heavy gage inductor in series with the lower woofer of each. Like 5-10mH value. If you must use all 4, flip the second set upsidedown on top of the first set, so that the tweeters are as close together as possible, the second set should also have it's "lower" (now upper, as it's inverted) woofer in series with the bigfatso inductor.

Regards,
Eric
No Speaker system is perfect - Almost everything is a compromise to a greater or lesser extent.
What Eric is suggesting makes a lot of sense 2KHZ is probably a good starting point for setting the crossover frequency.
This will help keep the 15" from sounding too rough at higher freqencies.
Below this frequency you might start to run out of headroom with the compression driver.
Adding the inductor to the bottom 15" driver will help to clean up the midrange.
To compare the differences it is probably best to listen to the speaker off axis. The mods should improve the mid range when listening off to the side of the speaker. Standard they probably beam mid like a laser
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Old 12th July 2012, 07:58 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djlivex View Post
Sakis I am not trying to offend you or give a bad advise those 15" woofers you have are made in China at $25 each no where near a JBL or Peavey league. You need to actively cross and be done with it. And RTA your speakers so you can hear and see whats happening. 800 people outside with 4 of those and you have not blown one component is amazing.
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Originally Posted by sakis View Post
you have no idea what are you talking about .....

the retail cost of the specific speaker world wide is about 650 euros similar JBL or Peavey will cost more or less half of it ....something like 350 euros
the speaker actually is 65 kgs ...almost double the weight of similar JBL or peavey

the specific woofers have a rated power 300W each and been pushing them with very clean 500W no clip at all times without any problems 4 years now ....

so if you have any of these woofers at this prize of 25 euros i will be very happy to get 100 and also pay them cash !!!.....
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Old 14th July 2012, 03:46 PM   #16
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Been making a few tests , got my shelf a new cx 3400 behringer configured as 2way stereo with actually a quite cool limiter
just synchronized the limiter to the peak of the amplifier cross it around 3.5 khz and works just fine ... the 2KHZ problem completely vanished and actually you even may use the system without equalizer ..plays just fine as is

of course 31 band Yamaha is to be used to make minor corrections but other than that all is fine .

Slept on the idea of the two woofers in parallel and the problem created in the middle area and i find the idea of just adding a big fat coil in the lower woofer is a nice idea and i will give it a try in the coming days

meanwhile i play with this system day after tomorrow a gig with a DJ set which mostly is going to be disco or pop music ( run it though with 3 way crossing and 2 2X18 subs ) and after that a gig with Greek folkloric music

see how it goes with both and let you know

kind regards
sakis
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Old 18th July 2012, 10:54 AM   #17
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here is the results to anyone interested .

It proved that the specific woofers have a hell of a good character ...Both events i had to play were so successful people where so amazed with the quality and colours of the sound that actually booked me another two events mostly cause of this .

It was so good that club or cafe owners that was located next to me since one of the gigs was in a local square to congratulate me and book me for more events or ask for my card for feature cooperation !!!

Details
In the DJ set up i used 4 of the specific speakers and a couple of subs ( renkous heinz Q 18 2*18" ) crossed in 3 way at 60 hz and middle to high a bit above 3.5 khz .
FACTS :
1) there is an obvious gap in high mid...... still ""obvious"" is for me and other experts to evaluate and for "" disco music "" program the high mids was just about enough and the paper cone deep woofers of the pictures produced high mids more than enough fro this type of music

2) Truly the mid and the comments made about the axis and the product of 2 woofers in a 2 way system ( 2X15 " + 1.25" HF driver vertical ) working also partially as mid ranges and all the issues around them was a correct thing to write from the forum member but the actual result wasn't that bad .It created a situation that middle had quite a lot of variations inside the sweet spot....and was perceived from the crowd as an extra presence in the vocals but only inside the sweet spot . In the feature i am going to install """big fat""" coils to remove some mids from the lower woofer .

Things there got a lot better in the Greek music gig setup as 2 Way have a stage 1 meter high above the crowd and 8 meters wide and give the system an inner tilt produced that extra presence in the vocals inside the venue ...

3) obviously crossing the high and the psd 200 from eminence that high ( >3.5 KHZ ) will actually make the HF drivers work in safety , create the high mid gap, require far less than 2*300W at 8 R rms to drive all 4 of them ....this situation will make the HF drivers actually working as super tweeters and of course the system will be dominated by that but hell yeah people loved it ( musicians also ) ...

Other details

In the DJ setup i was working on the beach i had loads of bass only using 1KW per sub plenty of middle but less high and that seemed to fade out after 60 meters or so ... dont know if this is horn issue or power issue ( cant be bothered though since i achieved my target on the dance floor )

In the Greek music set up run as 2 ways was a walk in the park just perfect remoove the mid problem and was almost CD quality ...

thanks for the help so far ...it seems that i am very lucky with the specific woofers and the linearity provided for the mids from them and also seems that i got the most out of my existing system in terms of quality ...

Kind regards
Sakis
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Old 18th July 2012, 10:58 AM   #18
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and by the way ...

Simply i almost have to remove my 2X31 EQ YAMAHA from my rig ... For both of the setups i had to simply make a small low cut ...reduce the pots lower than 40 cycles ( i could as well press the low cut in my xover but i prefer to do it manualy )

Add 2db in the area of 63 HZ to enhance Bass and remove couple of db arround 8KHZ to make the high even more crisp and hifi style ....

******* awesome !!!
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Old 22nd July 2012, 09:56 AM   #19
Tajzmaj is offline Tajzmaj  Slovenia
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Sakis! Hi...
Sorry for late reply....
I have whole rig based on 2x15''+2'' and it works fine. At least for me. It might be different because I use 2x PD153ER + Beyma CP850/nd controlled by BSS FDS366 and ,,repaired,, with DN360 EQ but.....it works fine.
I've seen at your first post that you have exchanged tweeters....
What if new tweeters are out of phase? What if there was incorrect marked polarity on old ones? Have you tried to change it? If it was ok before exchanging it than it might be the reason.
I would go with good quality active crossover without any bulbs....but protective capacitor is good idea. If you connect it wrong especially if you exchange tweeter and subwoofer at 3 way system, you might only spot short burst of smoke from horns without hearing anything ....but of course with such capacitor you again risk some phase problems. And correct phase is really important thing. Especially around cut freq...and it can be really bad at highly sensitive, not very linear and extremely loud PA speakers.
Please report.
Cheers, Taj
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Old 23rd July 2012, 08:23 AM   #20
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after setting up with both active and passive xovers i may tell you that for my case and problem was the existing passive xover inside ....dont ask me why its quite complicated to analyze and find out what was wrong .

95% of the problems solved with active xover and very very important with a multiband limiter ...

as very correctly said from forum members the middle will be an issue always and more tests are to be made to solve this .

I had no phase issues with HF driver since my xover features adjustable phase ...so i had the chance to look at that also

kind regards
sakis
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