greetings, after various thwarted attempts to contact dan healy, audio guru from grateful dead, whom now gigs around marin county with a small bar band-- i wanted and still want a "workingmans" ultrasound rig. really.
meyer sound labs perportadly used ciare woofers and radian compression drivers in some of their first boxes, till they made their own in house- people say shut up and buy some qsc powered speaks so i go and listen to them and naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..
after reading all that went into the system the dead played through by the 90's, i realize i will never come remotely close due to $$ restraints, yet i do believe the philosophy can carry over to a small club system. working man"s crude stab at linearity from a multi-system-what i hear at small clubs is still harsh and shrill and i DO consider the source- garbage in garbage out and all and personal taste of foh mixer and the like- i still hold that something modular- more units for more square footage- use small drivers for freq's 300 hz and up - boxes with matched drivers/amps/processing with software that you could use on a laptop in lieu of a driverack- i was spoiled by the dead's sound and will not let go of it. it can be done in a living room, why not (yes there are transients and peaks that pre-recorded music does not contain) live music in small clubs? think small. powered 4" drivers as the backbone. one or two drivers per box. so what if they cost $500 per? add more as you go. use to supplement conventional / available speakers till you can afford more.
in the mean time, i'll continue to put together a system using radian compression drivers powered by marantz ma-500 amps, ciare 10" mid bass powered by crown or crest, 15" eminence subs in bass reflex cabs and struggle along with my ears until more wisdom and money come my way.
lots of bar bands out there and if you look at guitar center and sweetwater and musicians friend and sam ash etc-- there IS a market out there. we've come a long way from university horns, then voice of the theaters- but man-- one out of hundred bar experiences that are good is bad !
tom
meyer sound labs perportadly used ciare woofers and radian compression drivers in some of their first boxes, till they made their own in house- people say shut up and buy some qsc powered speaks so i go and listen to them and naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..
after reading all that went into the system the dead played through by the 90's, i realize i will never come remotely close due to $$ restraints, yet i do believe the philosophy can carry over to a small club system. working man"s crude stab at linearity from a multi-system-what i hear at small clubs is still harsh and shrill and i DO consider the source- garbage in garbage out and all and personal taste of foh mixer and the like- i still hold that something modular- more units for more square footage- use small drivers for freq's 300 hz and up - boxes with matched drivers/amps/processing with software that you could use on a laptop in lieu of a driverack- i was spoiled by the dead's sound and will not let go of it. it can be done in a living room, why not (yes there are transients and peaks that pre-recorded music does not contain) live music in small clubs? think small. powered 4" drivers as the backbone. one or two drivers per box. so what if they cost $500 per? add more as you go. use to supplement conventional / available speakers till you can afford more.
in the mean time, i'll continue to put together a system using radian compression drivers powered by marantz ma-500 amps, ciare 10" mid bass powered by crown or crest, 15" eminence subs in bass reflex cabs and struggle along with my ears until more wisdom and money come my way.
lots of bar bands out there and if you look at guitar center and sweetwater and musicians friend and sam ash etc-- there IS a market out there. we've come a long way from university horns, then voice of the theaters- but man-- one out of hundred bar experiences that are good is bad !
tom
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A funny thing happened on the way to the factory.
I wanted to post this as some possible answer's if nothing else.
The art of sound reinforcement for live bands in smaller gigs is something I am highly familiar with. A good friend of mine who played guitar in one of the bands i was in , is also an audiophile / industry salesperson and has been for aprox 30 yrs. Myself I not only play drums but have a electronics engineering technology background and have been building speakers for years.
There are so many things that my friend RM and I agree on i regards to current equipment , that this alone becomes a lengthy conversation . Both good and bad.
Between us we own about 25 k Watts worth of PA in various configurations . Most of it is older (except amps)and has been "highly" modified" .
These days there is a lot of basically good sounding gear out there , but its seams that all of the manufacturers forget some pretty basic things about speakers and PA's in general. I have no idea how many high powered sub's , I've seen wired with 16 ga or 14 ga crappy wire. or 2 way tops with 18ga Its unbelievable . You build a decent high-ply count box , put in decent drivers , somewhat damp the cabinet and still you think cheaping out on wire is a good idea? Well its pretty much the same with most PA and audio gear these days , it seams like there's always something thats been left undone, or that the mgft's don't know about.
The good side these days is that someone actually figured out that mini line arrays are actually much easier to control and sound good that the old style large driver format 3 way systems. The issue I have here is how come all of these company's think they can charge a fortune for some essentially 2 way mid-high cab's with a line array dispersion characteristic designed in .
I'm sure it comes down to "marketing" , something I know a thing or two about.
But really if you want to own a market , just produce a mini array cab that anyone can stack 6 or 8 a side for under a couple of grand.
Next .. the thing I find most interesting at least where I live is how many sound men actuallty have NO idea of what they are doing in front of a system.
It's incredible these days to hear really bad sound coming out of relatively decent systems because the soundman de-jour has no clue of what he or she is doing.
As my friend RM puts it . "If it doesn't sound like the record or better on a good stereo , then your jobs is not done" .
It amazes me how many times i hear the standard "ROck" mix , too much this and that , bad clarity or none , etc,etc,etc.
Yes it always helps to work wtih players who have a clue about things like stage volume , tone and sound quality to begin with. But the amount of crap I hear these days in clubs is unbelievable. And Im amazed at how few SM's know how to get depth and ambiance within thier mix's . must be a lost art ....Nooooot
It can be done but you better start by forgeting eveything you think you know about live sound , this isn't the studio.
The system mentioned above by Blurkzzz sounds like a nice little system , properly done Im sure its probably quite sweet. And is a good example of how the use of even old gear can sound good when properly setup , tuned and put together.
So if you think you can't make older gear sound good , guess again , but first you better start studying on Tweeks and effective mods ,then sound , then stage issues , then microphone issues, then power issues, then driver and cab issues, then connector issues , then a lot of other stuff before you get most of the better answers , and put together something that current out of the store system's tend to still be deficient in. High fidelity !!
I wanted to post this as some possible answer's if nothing else.
The art of sound reinforcement for live bands in smaller gigs is something I am highly familiar with. A good friend of mine who played guitar in one of the bands i was in , is also an audiophile / industry salesperson and has been for aprox 30 yrs. Myself I not only play drums but have a electronics engineering technology background and have been building speakers for years.
There are so many things that my friend RM and I agree on i regards to current equipment , that this alone becomes a lengthy conversation . Both good and bad.
Between us we own about 25 k Watts worth of PA in various configurations . Most of it is older (except amps)and has been "highly" modified" .
These days there is a lot of basically good sounding gear out there , but its seams that all of the manufacturers forget some pretty basic things about speakers and PA's in general. I have no idea how many high powered sub's , I've seen wired with 16 ga or 14 ga crappy wire. or 2 way tops with 18ga Its unbelievable . You build a decent high-ply count box , put in decent drivers , somewhat damp the cabinet and still you think cheaping out on wire is a good idea? Well its pretty much the same with most PA and audio gear these days , it seams like there's always something thats been left undone, or that the mgft's don't know about.
The good side these days is that someone actually figured out that mini line arrays are actually much easier to control and sound good that the old style large driver format 3 way systems. The issue I have here is how come all of these company's think they can charge a fortune for some essentially 2 way mid-high cab's with a line array dispersion characteristic designed in .
I'm sure it comes down to "marketing" , something I know a thing or two about.
But really if you want to own a market , just produce a mini array cab that anyone can stack 6 or 8 a side for under a couple of grand.
Next .. the thing I find most interesting at least where I live is how many sound men actuallty have NO idea of what they are doing in front of a system.
It's incredible these days to hear really bad sound coming out of relatively decent systems because the soundman de-jour has no clue of what he or she is doing.
As my friend RM puts it . "If it doesn't sound like the record or better on a good stereo , then your jobs is not done" .
It amazes me how many times i hear the standard "ROck" mix , too much this and that , bad clarity or none , etc,etc,etc.
Yes it always helps to work wtih players who have a clue about things like stage volume , tone and sound quality to begin with. But the amount of crap I hear these days in clubs is unbelievable. And Im amazed at how few SM's know how to get depth and ambiance within thier mix's . must be a lost art ....Nooooot
It can be done but you better start by forgeting eveything you think you know about live sound , this isn't the studio.
The system mentioned above by Blurkzzz sounds like a nice little system , properly done Im sure its probably quite sweet. And is a good example of how the use of even old gear can sound good when properly setup , tuned and put together.
So if you think you can't make older gear sound good , guess again , but first you better start studying on Tweeks and effective mods ,then sound , then stage issues , then microphone issues, then power issues, then driver and cab issues, then connector issues , then a lot of other stuff before you get most of the better answers , and put together something that current out of the store system's tend to still be deficient in. High fidelity !!
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dear fft dude-
thanks for your reply. do you live anywhere near michigan? are you interested in collaborating in desigining and building/marketing mini line arrays- modular/ build and grow as you can afford- i just spent an hour on a post to you and somehow i lost it- flailing fingers on laptop syndrome.
think meyer MILO for bar bands. stackable / riggable to "fly" from a heavy duty tripod- the 4 inch faital and the 6.5" ciare ( both available at ussspeaker.com--specs. also available there.)
love what you said about make it sound like the record or better. a large part of the responsibility lays with the source, of course. arrangements, does the drummer "shelve" hiis drums- lay off the crash and open up the 1 and 2 k freqs. to let the rhythm guitar come through the mix? etc etc.
so, once we have an acceptable source, in a perfect world, in a perfect little bar- how do we make it sound really really great?
i always thought dead shows sounded so great because i intuited with so many speakers involved, we were treated to low pressure clarity. the sound was spread out coming from many sources rather than two laser beams of sound eminating from two narrow source points stage right and left.
remember the electro voice "eliminators"- horrible! woe be to you if you were sitting right in front of one pumping out snares and power chords! hideous and painful.
imagine 6 or 8 -4" faital full range, a compression horn with an L-pad- and a couple subs. 3 way active, maube a drive rack.
needs collaborators!
no budget- just ideas and a woodshop and 30 plus years of cabinetry experience ( in the construction world ) and several bands i'm in that could serve as guinaee (SP) pigs for new speaker systems.
thanks again mr. dude.
peace- tom
thanks for your reply. do you live anywhere near michigan? are you interested in collaborating in desigining and building/marketing mini line arrays- modular/ build and grow as you can afford- i just spent an hour on a post to you and somehow i lost it- flailing fingers on laptop syndrome.
think meyer MILO for bar bands. stackable / riggable to "fly" from a heavy duty tripod- the 4 inch faital and the 6.5" ciare ( both available at ussspeaker.com--specs. also available there.)
love what you said about make it sound like the record or better. a large part of the responsibility lays with the source, of course. arrangements, does the drummer "shelve" hiis drums- lay off the crash and open up the 1 and 2 k freqs. to let the rhythm guitar come through the mix? etc etc.
so, once we have an acceptable source, in a perfect world, in a perfect little bar- how do we make it sound really really great?
i always thought dead shows sounded so great because i intuited with so many speakers involved, we were treated to low pressure clarity. the sound was spread out coming from many sources rather than two laser beams of sound eminating from two narrow source points stage right and left.
remember the electro voice "eliminators"- horrible! woe be to you if you were sitting right in front of one pumping out snares and power chords! hideous and painful.
imagine 6 or 8 -4" faital full range, a compression horn with an L-pad- and a couple subs. 3 way active, maube a drive rack.
needs collaborators!
no budget- just ideas and a woodshop and 30 plus years of cabinetry experience ( in the construction world ) and several bands i'm in that could serve as guinaee (SP) pigs for new speaker systems.
thanks again mr. dude.
peace- tom
HI Blurkzzz
Sorry Im not near michigan , I'll send you email is regards to that.
It's funny what your saying about laser beam high's .
Too many manufacturer's think very high compression and resultant efficiency is the way to project sound. At least that's the way it was in the past , but like so many other things we learn over time.
Basically a line array decreases "half-space" loss over distance.
Singlular drivers have to radiate energy in mulitple directions both vertically and horizontally. By placing mulitple driver's in a line , you elliminate a certain percentage
of directional loss, by loading a vertical column wave . Each driver in the line contributes to that wave formation and eliminates wave dispertion loss in the vertical plane. The result is that the vertical wave loses less energy over distance and caries
a more consitant energy level alone the plane or axis of the wave.
Micoline arrays work quite well in smaller venue situations . Due to a much less intense pressure wave at the source will carry further and disperse in a nicely controlled manner.
Usually a line should consist of at least 8 drivers vertically. 4 is kinda like 4 bits in digital microelectronics "Its just a Nibble" and doesn't contribute much.
To be honest stay away from using L-Pads , efficiency matching and output level from a good quality electronic crossover is the way to go.
The rest is fine tuning with Eq's , which should always be minimal if designed right.
I have no Idea where people where taut to put "Happy Faces" on gragh's , but it's invariably always wrong and only a clear indication that "Your sound man knows Nothing!!!"
Other than PA's and Sound men who know nothing , the other biggest issue starts right under your feet when your on stage.
YEP most stages are designed wrong and built even worse !!!
Disclaimer here is that this last statement mostly pertains to smaller venues
in bars / dance halls that someone was contracted to build a stage , and 99% of contractors unfortunately know nothing about standing waves under the stage.
If you ever see bass bins underneath a stage, thats a clear indication that your likely going to have serious problems with the sound.
It's funny you mention "The Dead" , they used an all custom built system powered by walls of beautiful MacIntosh amps . Any sound engineer that go's to that kind of trouble to build a system obviously knows what he's after , which should be nothing short of amazing sound. As I've said before, if it doesn't sound better that a record then you've got some work to do.
The next step in the chain here , is the musicians themselves.
I've played in dozens of bands and I'm constatly amazed at how little most musicians understand about either sound or thier instrument. Guitars players are probably at the head of line in this chorus. I've seen dozens of them that still think the tone is in the amp. (Guess again guys) , its in your fingers , learn how to use them !!!
Sorry its just I've seen so many out there like that .
I often feel like asking people "Did it really sound like that on the record ?"
Cause I have the record and I don't think so !!!
Anyway I digress , Micro line arrays are relatively easy to do right , and you don't have to spend a fortune on very high end drivers. ALthough that does tend to help.
Cheers...Rich
Sorry Im not near michigan , I'll send you email is regards to that.
It's funny what your saying about laser beam high's .
Too many manufacturer's think very high compression and resultant efficiency is the way to project sound. At least that's the way it was in the past , but like so many other things we learn over time.
Basically a line array decreases "half-space" loss over distance.
Singlular drivers have to radiate energy in mulitple directions both vertically and horizontally. By placing mulitple driver's in a line , you elliminate a certain percentage
of directional loss, by loading a vertical column wave . Each driver in the line contributes to that wave formation and eliminates wave dispertion loss in the vertical plane. The result is that the vertical wave loses less energy over distance and caries
a more consitant energy level alone the plane or axis of the wave.
Micoline arrays work quite well in smaller venue situations . Due to a much less intense pressure wave at the source will carry further and disperse in a nicely controlled manner.
Usually a line should consist of at least 8 drivers vertically. 4 is kinda like 4 bits in digital microelectronics "Its just a Nibble" and doesn't contribute much.
To be honest stay away from using L-Pads , efficiency matching and output level from a good quality electronic crossover is the way to go.
The rest is fine tuning with Eq's , which should always be minimal if designed right.
I have no Idea where people where taut to put "Happy Faces" on gragh's , but it's invariably always wrong and only a clear indication that "Your sound man knows Nothing!!!"
Other than PA's and Sound men who know nothing , the other biggest issue starts right under your feet when your on stage.
YEP most stages are designed wrong and built even worse !!!
Disclaimer here is that this last statement mostly pertains to smaller venues
in bars / dance halls that someone was contracted to build a stage , and 99% of contractors unfortunately know nothing about standing waves under the stage.
If you ever see bass bins underneath a stage, thats a clear indication that your likely going to have serious problems with the sound.
It's funny you mention "The Dead" , they used an all custom built system powered by walls of beautiful MacIntosh amps . Any sound engineer that go's to that kind of trouble to build a system obviously knows what he's after , which should be nothing short of amazing sound. As I've said before, if it doesn't sound better that a record then you've got some work to do.
The next step in the chain here , is the musicians themselves.
I've played in dozens of bands and I'm constatly amazed at how little most musicians understand about either sound or thier instrument. Guitars players are probably at the head of line in this chorus. I've seen dozens of them that still think the tone is in the amp. (Guess again guys) , its in your fingers , learn how to use them !!!
Sorry its just I've seen so many out there like that .
I often feel like asking people "Did it really sound like that on the record ?"
Cause I have the record and I don't think so !!!
Anyway I digress , Micro line arrays are relatively easy to do right , and you don't have to spend a fortune on very high end drivers. ALthough that does tend to help.
Cheers...Rich
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You folks are a little off track on this WRT the Dead.
The big system was in the early 70s. Some guy on here name Curl had some role in it.
Meyer used Radian drivers NOT first.
Doubt that he builds his own, even today. It is too expensive to do that.
It is a good idea to read up on what people are doing for live sound today.
The new gear is very clean, and very loud.
Also check out what Tom Danley is doing. THAT IS impressive.
There are lots of limitations to large line arrays - even scaled down to "club size". They do not end up small or light weight. Maybe ok for a fixed install... but unless they are like one of the newer line arrays, they will be huge and expensive, and likely not perform as well.
Fortune on drivers? The array is no better than a single driver, so I disagree on that.
_-_-bear
The big system was in the early 70s. Some guy on here name Curl had some role in it.
Meyer used Radian drivers NOT first.
Doubt that he builds his own, even today. It is too expensive to do that.
It is a good idea to read up on what people are doing for live sound today.
The new gear is very clean, and very loud.
Also check out what Tom Danley is doing. THAT IS impressive.
There are lots of limitations to large line arrays - even scaled down to "club size". They do not end up small or light weight. Maybe ok for a fixed install... but unless they are like one of the newer line arrays, they will be huge and expensive, and likely not perform as well.
Fortune on drivers? The array is no better than a single driver, so I disagree on that.
_-_-bear
huge line arrays vs efficient point sources...Tom Danley and I are always on different sides...but either can be done really well...or really poorly. IMHO it's hard to really screw up a stack of sealed boxes, so I'm on the harder-to-screw-up side.
I think I need to buy a building and open a club. I want to control the room acoustics too.
I'm floundering at present. With amps better and cheaper every year, I'm going for inefficient isobaric subs that are small and somewhat portable, very impressive quality and reasonable quantity of output via many many many many (that's 4 times as many) drivers (in the same box space), half of them hidden. Starting with a few small boxes and adding... Problem is that on the road, with EQ they'd need all the power a small venue has...leaving nothing for lights LOL! And I'd probably have two seperate PA's, one for vocals and another for instruments.
I think I need to buy a building and open a club. I want to control the room acoustics too.
I'm floundering at present. With amps better and cheaper every year, I'm going for inefficient isobaric subs that are small and somewhat portable, very impressive quality and reasonable quantity of output via many many many many (that's 4 times as many) drivers (in the same box space), half of them hidden. Starting with a few small boxes and adding... Problem is that on the road, with EQ they'd need all the power a small venue has...leaving nothing for lights LOL! And I'd probably have two seperate PA's, one for vocals and another for instruments.
Meyer has used amoung others Radian, JBL, and Yamaha drivers.
Actually Meyer does make most if not all of thier drivers in house. Now whether they cast the hf driver bodies, lf baskets, and motors I don't know, but a decent cnc machining center could turn the rough casts into finished pieces all day long. They do make the diaphragms and cones. A number of years ago they bought up all the paper stock they would need for a long time and they are constantly developing new diaphragm materials.
Actually Meyer does make most if not all of thier drivers in house. Now whether they cast the hf driver bodies, lf baskets, and motors I don't know, but a decent cnc machining center could turn the rough casts into finished pieces all day long. They do make the diaphragms and cones. A number of years ago they bought up all the paper stock they would need for a long time and they are constantly developing new diaphragm materials.
Array no better than single
Hi Bear;
WHen using high efficiency single 12's or 15's compared to small line arrays.
Expense wise your right .
The thing about line's is that if thier done right its way easier to get even
SPL to the back of the room.
By the looks of your site www.bearlabs.com (Nice stuff by the way) you probably aren't using cheaper drivers . A lot of bar bands have to work with the standard utility level boxes coming out of various chinese plants
for all the known names.
I've heard more than a few of these systems fall down when it comes to
projecting evenly down a room.
Getting back to what "manufacturers" leave out in design's or are only now starting to figure out in material choices, I'd like to say that there are some really simple basic tweeks that can be made to most system's , even cheaper one's that help sound quality in very surprising ways.
Other than starting with wire , most Horns have cavity resonance issue's
and general resonance issues that can be dealt with simple with a layer of
damping mat applied to the back of the horn. The drivers diaphrams also have various issues. Ever notice how much better sounding the titanium diaphrams with mylar suspension's are than the one's that make the suspension from the same titanium piece.
Easiest way I know to make metal diaphrams behave is to coat the suspension with a dampening coat of "puzzle coat" or similar PVC based
coating. Obviously you can't always make something really bad work.
But its amazing what most manufacturer's don't know about this stuff or don't want to spend the expense on it.
Also you'd be surprised to find out how many designer's come up with something really well optimized , only to have an accountant kill various things in manufacturing. It happens all the time.
Cheers...FFT dude
Hi Bear;
WHen using high efficiency single 12's or 15's compared to small line arrays.
Expense wise your right .
The thing about line's is that if thier done right its way easier to get even
SPL to the back of the room.
By the looks of your site www.bearlabs.com (Nice stuff by the way) you probably aren't using cheaper drivers . A lot of bar bands have to work with the standard utility level boxes coming out of various chinese plants
for all the known names.
I've heard more than a few of these systems fall down when it comes to
projecting evenly down a room.
Getting back to what "manufacturers" leave out in design's or are only now starting to figure out in material choices, I'd like to say that there are some really simple basic tweeks that can be made to most system's , even cheaper one's that help sound quality in very surprising ways.
Other than starting with wire , most Horns have cavity resonance issue's
and general resonance issues that can be dealt with simple with a layer of
damping mat applied to the back of the horn. The drivers diaphrams also have various issues. Ever notice how much better sounding the titanium diaphrams with mylar suspension's are than the one's that make the suspension from the same titanium piece.
Easiest way I know to make metal diaphrams behave is to coat the suspension with a dampening coat of "puzzle coat" or similar PVC based
coating. Obviously you can't always make something really bad work.
But its amazing what most manufacturer's don't know about this stuff or don't want to spend the expense on it.
Also you'd be surprised to find out how many designer's come up with something really well optimized , only to have an accountant kill various things in manufacturing. It happens all the time.
Cheers...FFT dude
Now you got me started , there's another thing almost all manufacturers seem to have forgotten. Which is this.
When you build up sound pressure inside a cabinet , where do you think that sound goes ?
Most people forget that some of the sound coming out of speaker cabinets is actually reflected SPL that modulates the cone or is going right through it.
So what does this say about 99% of the design's out there.
Interesting Eh !
When you build up sound pressure inside a cabinet , where do you think that sound goes ?
Most people forget that some of the sound coming out of speaker cabinets is actually reflected SPL that modulates the cone or is going right through it.
So what does this say about 99% of the design's out there.
Interesting Eh !
Grateful Dead = american band from San Francisco?
Not sure that SY has or had anything to do with them, maybe... maybe he likes the band?
Curl is the one who had direct connection.
As far as trying to deal with Healy or any of the others of the Dead, good luck with that. I think however he was mostly a guy who turned knobs for them, not designed the PA.
_-_-bear
PS. one of the biggest problems for "bars" and "clubs" in terms of sound is that the rooms are generally awful in terms of reverberation time and amplitude... that means that the room often overloads and not all at the same frequencies at the same time. The room also will vary considerably depending on how packed or empty the place is. And, most bands try to play WAY too LOUD all the time. The result with multiple open mics at least imo is total trash coming forth from the PA, especially above 10Khz. That and PA amps being clipped due to the insanity of mic'ing the drums AND the vocals, without any or proper sub-mix processing in the form of limiting and/or compression for those two things *separately*. If anyone bothered to calculate the peak SPL required to put the drums up in average level where the guitars are without clipping (or limiting) they would find that the levels are insane, and the power required through the roof... <steps down from soap box>
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Followup on PA's in bars
Bear;
I love what your saying about bands playing too loud on stage and other issues associated with rooms , amount of people ,etc.
One of my biggest complaints is with Guitarist's.
I have no idea who taught them to point thier amps straight out at the audience but the issue is this.
Most are using combo's or singles with 12's, which by the way are beamy as hell. Then because all of the sound is blasting past thier Kneecaps
they tend to mix very edgy and bright. WHich just compounds the issue.
So 20+ ft out in the audience, a narrow swath of people are getting blasted by overly edgy & bright guitar . And if he's only got one amp
the rest of the band is strugling to hear tone .
The best way I've found to solve this is point the amp at the guitar players head, he tone's down appropriately the back wave bounces off the floor and goes across the stage so that everyone hears it.
and usually the volume issues take care of themselves .
But the trend of this story is the the band itself is the main component of good or bad sound. The rest comes down to gear and people who know how to use it.
Bear;
I love what your saying about bands playing too loud on stage and other issues associated with rooms , amount of people ,etc.
One of my biggest complaints is with Guitarist's.
I have no idea who taught them to point thier amps straight out at the audience but the issue is this.
Most are using combo's or singles with 12's, which by the way are beamy as hell. Then because all of the sound is blasting past thier Kneecaps
they tend to mix very edgy and bright. WHich just compounds the issue.
So 20+ ft out in the audience, a narrow swath of people are getting blasted by overly edgy & bright guitar . And if he's only got one amp
the rest of the band is strugling to hear tone .
The best way I've found to solve this is point the amp at the guitar players head, he tone's down appropriately the back wave bounces off the floor and goes across the stage so that everyone hears it.
and usually the volume issues take care of themselves .
But the trend of this story is the the band itself is the main component of good or bad sound. The rest comes down to gear and people who know how to use it.
Those chrome things on the sides of Fender Twins?
Stands.
You pull them back and then the amp leans back and angles up.
Ever seen it run that way?
Ha ha.
Guitarists tend to be creatures of habit - good luck moving their amps or angling them.
Glad I do not do house sound.
Leave that torture to you.
Most people playing in bands or mixing bands or working in clubs have lost the top octave or more of their hearing - happens pretty quickly. After that, what sounds good to them is not what sounds good if you can still hear at all.
Wear foam earplugs, now you hear what the guitarist (and almost everyone else) is hearing, as they hear it. Crank up that treeeeble mon!
_-_-bear
Stands.
You pull them back and then the amp leans back and angles up.
Ever seen it run that way?
Ha ha.
Guitarists tend to be creatures of habit - good luck moving their amps or angling them.
Glad I do not do house sound.
Leave that torture to you.
Most people playing in bands or mixing bands or working in clubs have lost the top octave or more of their hearing - happens pretty quickly. After that, what sounds good to them is not what sounds good if you can still hear at all.
Wear foam earplugs, now you hear what the guitarist (and almost everyone else) is hearing, as they hear it. Crank up that treeeeble mon!
_-_-bear
this is very interesting. i love reading what you folks have posted. it does all come down to $$$- unfortunately. how do you "fly" a line array in a small club? small & light weight? 6" drivers? co-ax or go the bose rout and use single small drivers? would tweeters/ compression drivers be needed? would you need as many tweeters/drivers as the six inch or 3 inch or whatever the primary flown miss? go the 3" route? ultra light weight might make this practical to hang from a speaker stand retro fitted? would it necessarily be as expensive as the over priced (from my ears) bose stick person dealeo's? whatever the case i agree that you have to approach the entire gestalt- fingers voices stage volume LISTENING connectors, power supply, and all the rest. i live in a tourist town and live in a residential neighborhood and there are a couple bars a couple blocks away that have bands play outdoors on the weekend- and i'm subjected to their caterwauling whether i want it or not -- HAIL GREAT SOUND!!!!
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