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east electronics 19th November 2011 06:28 PM

some PA help....
As very well known Greece is on crises of economics which obviously means like any other business also big Pa systems and related events are down .

Latest couple of years we operate many much smaller events for smaller venues and less people .In my company beyond other systems for this type of rental we use currently Behringer 2222 FX series mixers small cheap and effective .

here is the problem :

in a simple set up that includes 2 voices 1 electro acoustic guitar and may be one Yamaha electric piano 2 15" 2way speakers and 2 monitors for an audience of 50 people it seems that instruments and voices are mixed up too much with each other.

I don't know if my description is correct but sounds like the piano is messed up with the vocals or the guitar is messed up with the piano and so on .

It seems that there is no proper analysis in the system and remains an issue since i tried this mixer with many Pa set ups as a front system also been working with those mixers for more than 2 years now so in a way i am loosing the touch ...

we also have many other mixers but actually too big for this kind of set up so we hardly ever use them .

Of course in the coming events will play with some other mixer to find out but in between can anybody share an opinion about this ??

I know provided info might not be enough but i will keep an eye in the thread and post more info if needed .

Kind regards

Tajzmaj 20th November 2011 09:23 PM

First of all. Gigs are down scaling all around. At my home Slovenija is pretty bad. I moved to London this year but I must say that I feel some bitter taste here too....
At home I have rental company and my H3000 and my Legend 3000 are just sitting in cases for most of the time. But we must survive so....
Question....Such strange feeling of ,,too mixed,, sound when you cant determine source of the sound and everything is somehow blurry is sometimes result of actually too low level at the sound system. Part of the sound comes from stage and part from the sound system....and if stage is small in most cases you have everything in all microphones. Even at some bigger club event such case can happen if there you have really loud instruments on stage, such as big guitar amps and such case you really must crank it up and the result is very high level sometimes hitting over we always try to keep level down but it is impossible to achieve it at some try to go ,,over the band,, with pa....
Best regards, Taj

Tajzmaj 20th November 2011 09:25 PM

And try to avoid use of long reverbs, plates......maybe only short delay....

pinkmouse 20th November 2011 10:07 PM

You have to mix differently, and look at mic placement. I used to do a lot of folk gigs, and many of the instruments have exactly the same tonal range, which ends up sounding very muddy if you go for exact hi-fi style sound for each instrument. Don't be afraid of the EQ on the desk, you may end up with individual instruments sounding quite strange in isolation, but get a mix that works and conveys the correct impression.

east electronics 21st November 2011 08:44 AM

ok ...thanks for the input ...what actually makes real sense is what Taj said .....placing of mikes and how much they pick up from stage monitor ... weird think is that i have seen no comments around the mixer and seems that none relates this to the mixer so far ....

i will keep the info though and check my setup a bit better next time .... thanks ppl for your help ... i will post my findings here

kind regards sakis

cyclecamper 21st November 2011 08:54 PM

If you have the resources, I realty like seperate PAs for instruments and vocals, and I run the bas guitar thru its own PA too. But it gets overly complicated for small gigs.

Tajzmaj 22nd November 2011 02:38 AM

And of course what Pinkmouse said ....sometimes you have to use eq quite radically. As a matter a fact in most cases.. :)
And here comes first comment around the mixer itself. Cheap mixers have bad preamps and equalizers so it is funny sometimes how you turn it in extreme position and still nothing happens.....uf I hate that.
Very best regards, Taj

east electronics 22nd November 2011 09:39 AM

all very well said ... obviously separated Pa is out of the question since is not cost effective ...and room effective especially in a small gig ....

as about the eq ...some times i find it more nice to have a clean and nice mixer even though the cut or boost facility in the tone control changes minor things ...

one thing i am willing to try is to play the same gig and mix ( where i originally noticed the problem) but reduce the gain of the over all inputs to pick up less from the stage monitor ...

will work like this tonight and let you know

kind regards sakis

east electronics 23rd November 2011 09:48 AM

last night i run the same set up ..... for a costumer ...that will be 2 guitars one percussionist 4 voices .... set up was even worst since behind the band was a glass made wall ..

2x 15'' 2way eon 15 ,2 x monitors AD 162,and the xenyx 2222 mixer ...

decided to try to reduce the gain more than 30% ...previously aim was to get best signal to noise ratio and that will mean that tuning was made to achieve a 0db level at the input of the mixer at the peaks of one voice or one instrument ...while sound check this sound ok but let us not forget that in first stages of sound check is always one instrument at the time results that with his setup and approach when it comes to more than one organ or voice then splatter effect starts .... things loose analysis and get too mixed up with each other..

with almost 30% decreased gain was a better spread of peaks in the input of the mixer and things got by far more sharp in the PA mix .... no probs with stage monitor and my only concern was that the musicians will notice the absence of gain and actually did but at the end the all thing got a lot better also in stage monitor so problem solved ..

now simple as that one with electronics engineer background will of course will go for the best S/N ratio but proved that this is not the issue compared to a much more detailed and analyzed sound ...

one way or another even cheap mixers like xenyx 2222fx hav very good noise figures so targeting for best S/N ratio is not the number one issue .....

thanks for putting me more in to the picture
kind regards

Tajzmaj 23rd November 2011 10:15 PM

You are welcome any time.
Best regards, Taj

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