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Old 10th December 2011, 10:06 PM   #11
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sounds like your fighting your mix. peace man....

When my first years students have issue like this I tell them to relax and think. What needs to be amplified. Live sound is supposed to be an extension of whats happening on stage, transparently helping the sounds that are naturally on stage.

I tell them to set all monitors eq flat as well as FOH. master fader at unity. Then play music though them make all the speakers sound the same (it really helps if all the speakers are the same). Then turn on one microphone on stage, don't mix it in the monitor, just the foh. Set the mic pre gain all the way down, bring the channel slider to unity, then turn up the mic till its on the verge of oscillating cut that in the foh eq. now, set the aux output half way (unity) setting. do the same thing with the monitor. bring back the maser fader back down and trim back the monitors output a little. then adjust levels to the room, and musicians monitor level.



On a side note I use 15" eons as monitors, I run the bass flat and trim the highs just a little.
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Old 11th December 2011, 09:05 AM   #12
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well .... thanks for the tips but its not always working like that .... i could if this was a permanent set up and or musicians cooperate we both know very well that these two facts never come to help the sound engineer ..

Where i come from we say that the sound engineer is the devil's lawyer between the musicians and the owner of the club ....

hardly ever i listened any musician to ask me to keep stage monitor down ..they like to have it as loud is possible or at least louder than the next musician of course this will effect how mics are working on stage....and then the general mix .

finally since i am very careful with stage monitoring now days i just keep my gains a bit lower than i used to and all is fine

thanks

sakis
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Old 13th December 2011, 02:31 AM   #13
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thats why I have Special monitors for those guys ( monzilla: a 15 inch two way monitor with a 15" EVX180a and a Peavy RX44 2" 400w compression driver, crown macro-tech 3500 on the 15 (1100 watts rms ) and a crown macro-tech 2400 (500W) on the horn)


The guitarist for Grand Funk Railroad said to me "I better hear my monitor" I said ok I'll turn it up half way . he hit an "A" cord and flew back 1 meter-- mission accomplish.


No. they do tell me to turn them down, except for Dr. Hook, but he seems like he's almost deaf, what a tragedy.
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Old 29th December 2011, 07:06 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by sakis View Post
ok ...thanks for the input ...what actually makes real sense is what Taj said .....placing of mikes and how much they pick up from stage monitor ... weird think is that i have seen no comments around the mixer and seems that none relates this to the mixer so far ....

i will keep the info though and check my setup a bit better next time .... thanks ppl for your help ... i will post my findings here

kind regards sakis
First of all the PA MUST be at least 6dB over the stage volume at the house mix
Turn the PA off and meter their stage volume.
The things that bleed do cause some problems, but if you do your best on mic placement that is all you can do about it.

Use your headphones and see what kind of bleed you have on critical instruments such as Piano with the lid up. If it is a loud stage put mics in the piano on foam rubber and close the lid. Tell the Piano player if he opens it back up you will shut him off.

One of the problems you can have on a big concert stage is the back line can be 20 feet from the front vocal line.
I know at least one engineer that used a delay on all the back line so it would line up in time with the bleed that was going through 20 feet of air before it went through the vocal mic.
If you are doing small tight stages this you do not have to worry about.

On the mixer question you have to identify its weaknesses and figure a way around it.
If you do not have full parametric EQ on the channel EQ bands you need to go about this in a different way.

What I did was pick the mics that would give me very close to what I needed with the channel EQ near flat.
For bar gigs I used Beyer M-500 ribbon mics for star vocals. They are expensive and do not take clumsy handling. Also they are expensive to repair.
BUT...The vocals sounded like I had a big Midas rather then the 16 Channel Biamp that had only four band fixed EQ.

On just about everything else I used decent Condensers. Even on the lead guitar and snare.
Two places I used something else was kick drum and large floor toms. Season to taste.
With all the instrument mics the same when they "bleed" it will not be near as much of a problem.

If you have a board with lots channel EQ feel free to use SM58 and SM57 if you must. At least you have the tools to fix the response.
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Old 30th December 2011, 07:42 AM   #15
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thats a handfull of useful information ... thank you for that

generally though this type of information is by far out of the picture since the set up is way too smaller than the ones you describe .. there is no drums or real piano ... the piano is electric

as i said the problem is solved and was my intention to aim for best s/n ratio and obviously that was the mistake .... with "cold" musicians and during sound check i asked them to play and set the gain to almost 0db ....obviously when the musicians warmed up started to exceed these levels 6-10db more and this is what made the mess ..
I am more realistic now with the settings and leave room for the musicians to expand their peaks and all is by far more analytic and clean.


Interesting remark was the 6db level above monitor mix min as you described it .... i agree totally end also find the 6db marginal .... still in small set ups this is actually impossible to achieve since musicians like the stage monitor as loud is possible while the bar owner doesn't want to keep the neighbors awake ha ha ha ha ...

Thanks for your info
kind regards
sakis
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Old 30th December 2011, 03:08 PM   #16
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Great tips for an amateur thinking of moving out of the living room to the public. This forum is an education without the tuition and relocation and expenses of living in a college town. Thanks to all.
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Old 3rd January 2012, 09:58 PM   #17
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Hi,

Have you tried stereo panning?
It doesn't have to be much to seperate two similar sounding guitars, and I suspect a similar approach would help keep each instrument seperate.

Chris
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Old 3rd January 2012, 10:15 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by chris661 View Post
Hi,

Have you tried stereo panning?
It doesn't have to be much to seperate two similar sounding guitars, and I suspect a similar approach would help keep each instrument seperate.

Chris
Back when I was still working I used to leave a guitar run in the center, but let the effects run stereo.

There have been some lively arguments about "Stereo" mixes in Live Audio.
One thing for sure a very few people actually hear enough of Left and right to call it "Stereo". Even mixing in small rooms I mostly had to aim the left and right FOH for coverage and almost no one in the audience heard both speakers.
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Old 3rd January 2012, 10:29 PM   #19
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Exactly, the most I pan in a gig situation is 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock, and depending on the venue, it can be a lot less than that.
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