Pro Audio is a SEPARATE issue from the throw.
NOT ALL Pro Audio is long throw.
Monitors are NEAR FIELD.
Low frequency drivers ALL throw a long way regardless.
An LF driver pushes sound waves from the moment that the cone moves and it is audible in ALL fields near, mid and far. This is why the friendly badged gentlemen with the lights on their car roof stop by my house with the LOW frequencies are up because LOW frequencies travel a LONG distance.
What the "throw" is referring to is the Q or directivity of the sound.
If we look at the LF drivers we see that the size of the voice coil in the magnet and the angle of the cone can slightly change the directivity by making the cone shape vary somewhat, however in LF there is not much difference between throw, LF pretty much just goes EVERYWHERE.
Where we get a HUGE difference is in the HORN shape. Horns come in ANY size and shape imaginable. Horns do more than just "throw" the sound, they focus it to where we want it and NOT where we dont, putting more volume in the right place and less is wasted.
A large diameter horn such as 90 or 120 degree would be considered short throw even if it were directional such as a 90 by 40 or a 120 by 40 because it disperses in short range.
A mid range horn would be like a 60x40
Long throw would be a 40x40 or 40x20.
So for this reason, I disagree that all pro audio is "long throw".
In my home, I have 4 Renkus-Heinz MR-122s which are PRO AUDIO Near-Field MONITORS.
Each has a 12" LF Driver (McCauley 12-7) and a 12" Complex Conic horn (90x90 degrees) each driven by dual 3" compression drivers. Nothing long throw on there yet these are PRO AUDIO.
Want to make your long throw pro audio speakers sound better near-field?
SWAP THE HORNS for the dispersion pattern that is optimum for your room. (Add this to my list of advantages of Pro Audio over home systems).
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There is a lot of really good information in this thread. Unfortunately I'm noticing there are two very large distinct groups on the subject of pro-speakers for home use.
1. People who know how well these speakers can be implemented for home use.
2. People who dismiss all of those people's experience as rubbish.
I don't doubt the nay sayer's have not experienced sonic nirvana provided by pro-speakers but I do doubt they have had the inclination to replicate any of the believers home-brewed examples.
As for loud, well my speakers can do that very well but I'm usually vary happy using 1/2 to 2w. My amps and my speakers don't even break a sweat. Like veronica shared above, I use a short throw horn for my midrange.
1. People who know how well these speakers can be implemented for home use.
2. People who dismiss all of those people's experience as rubbish.
I don't doubt the nay sayer's have not experienced sonic nirvana provided by pro-speakers but I do doubt they have had the inclination to replicate any of the believers home-brewed examples.
As for loud, well my speakers can do that very well but I'm usually vary happy using 1/2 to 2w. My amps and my speakers don't even break a sweat. Like veronica shared above, I use a short throw horn for my midrange.
Why, did she hurt your ears?Veronica, interesting post, but do you think you could tone down the SHOUTING? or you are trying to be heard over the pro woofers?try bolding, or underlining its less in yer face
I had to scroll back to see what the fuss is all about.
Found nothing to complain about.
I had expected the typical ALL CAPS FULL OF BRAGGING OR BAD KARMA post we find now and then, which are all but unreadable and cause headaches, but it was not such.
In fact, I found it quite well mannered and to the point.
Caps are one accepted form of EMPHASIS, same as writing between *asterisks* or >like this< or _this_ other way.
In fact, they precede Internet by a long way (as in a couple thousand Years) .
Not forgetting that re-EMailing text (such as Forum EMail notifications) *often* strips text of "font attributes" and meaning sometimes gets lost.
They do the same on "smilies"
By the way, Veronica wrote this one year ago, don't think she's exactly monitoring this thread by now
Found nothing to complain about.
I had expected the typical ALL CAPS FULL OF BRAGGING OR BAD KARMA post we find now and then, which are all but unreadable and cause headaches, but it was not such.
In fact, I found it quite well mannered and to the point.
Caps are one accepted form of EMPHASIS, same as writing between *asterisks* or >like this< or _this_ other way.
In fact, they precede Internet by a long way (as in a couple thousand Years) .
Not forgetting that re-EMailing text (such as Forum EMail notifications) *often* strips text of "font attributes" and meaning sometimes gets lost.
They do the same on "smilies"
By the way, Veronica wrote this one year ago, don't think she's exactly monitoring this thread by now
Why, did she hurt your ears?
no, just my eyes
its still shouting, when I wish to emphasize something in conversation, I dont shout the word.
JMFahey said:I had to scroll back to see what the fuss is all about.
Found nothing to complain about.
I had expected the typical ALL CAPS FULL OF BRAGGING OR BAD KARMA post we find now and then, which are all but unreadable and cause headaches, but it was not such.
In fact, I found it quite well mannered and to the point.
Caps are one accepted form of EMPHASIS, same as writing between *asterisks* or >like this< or _this_ other way.
In fact, they precede Internet by a long way (as in a couple thousand Years) .
Not forgetting that re-EMailing text (such as Forum EMail notifications) *often* strips text of "font attributes" and meaning sometimes gets lost.
They do the same on "smilies"
By the way, Veronica wrote this one year ago, don't think she's exactly monitoring this thread by now
Maybe its a matter of opinion and the fact I was a graphic designer/typographer for nearly 10 years, but I find the caps VERY in your face, COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY when used like this. the odd word sure, if a point has been missed and you are frustrated, but almost every sentence?
Here they were used GRATUITOUSLY in an otherwise well formed post. I guess its a byproduct of the internet age or texting, but it would NEVER be accepted anywhere else. It DOESNT make the point any better than without them, it DOESNT add ANY weight to the content. In fact I find it DETRACTS from it.
I didnt notice it was a thread dug up from the depths or I wouldnt have bothered. I wasnt making a huge deal about it, thus my use of emoticons, you guys have made the big deal out of it.
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A reminder, posting in all caps is a violation of forum rules and for all of the reasons mentioned in previous posts. It's also RUDE. Time to move along and get back on topic.. Thank you.I wonder who is determining the difference between pro speakers and home speakers here . You guys seem to agree that a speaker with a rubber sorround is a HiFi one and a thing like those Dayton 12" should be pro audio or P.A. As a working sound engineer and sound system designer I must tell you that to build the best possible sound reinforcing system you pick the best possible drivers that the market can give you. You look for the parameters you need. That can be a very high excursion if you want to build a subwoofer, together with a high power capability. You have to calculate a enclosure for the speaker you pick and then putting in a driver with totally different parameters will just not work. In the pro sektor there are many diferrent speakers, each build for a specific task. What determines a really pro transducer (not a Dayton, no one in the pro sektor uses them) is first its long time stability and reliability. The drivers out of the box should show verymuch the same parameters so your product once designed can be manufactured and the units all sound the same. This will of course happen only if you are using premium components, be it a small woofer with a foam surround or be it a 21" driver designed to take 1000 Watts. There is pro sound systems using 5" drivers which very much look like a usual woofer out of a white van box, but only from the outside. If a pro (really pro) sound system is designed to cover the full audio spectrum at low distortion, you can use it in your home and will enjoy a perfect sound. If you go and get you'r 30 years old Peavey 2 Way speakers from the basement, you won't.
I took for granted Spiderman's assumption that 'the more the power you have, the more responsibilities you have to face'.
Indeed we are not talking about power or sound throwing or coverage that
are of no interest when playing some records at home.
We should inspect the ability of recreating an illusion , which is the soundfield
of the original record, transponded in time and place. Then we should stimulate our judgement abilities to establish if the goal is reached.
I'm in the position of agreeing with the ones that have expressed the fact that searching a good reproduction by using pro drivers is very hard.
I only own a pair of Audax PR17Mo that I bought to pair them with some
15" that I had; I also bought a pair of compression tweeters ( B&C DE7) but I much prefer the sound of my Audax TW025A16. Not to mention that the
system still deserves a subwoofer.
So what? I haven't responded to the question about boundaries and reflections...
Indeed we are not talking about power or sound throwing or coverage that
are of no interest when playing some records at home.
We should inspect the ability of recreating an illusion , which is the soundfield
of the original record, transponded in time and place. Then we should stimulate our judgement abilities to establish if the goal is reached.
I'm in the position of agreeing with the ones that have expressed the fact that searching a good reproduction by using pro drivers is very hard.
I only own a pair of Audax PR17Mo that I bought to pair them with some
15" that I had; I also bought a pair of compression tweeters ( B&C DE7) but I much prefer the sound of my Audax TW025A16. Not to mention that the
system still deserves a subwoofer.
So what? I haven't responded to the question about boundaries and reflections...
The coverage is very important on a speaker system in a room.
When your speaker has a flat frequencie response on main axys but has not a even coverage through the frequency band that means that the reflected part of the sound will not be flat. Reflection is a great part of what we hear in a room. Therefore it is desirable that the coverage of a speaker is as even as possible through the audible frequency band.
If you are going to pair a 15" driver with a tweeter or a compression driver
this is hard to achieve because the 15" will start to nnarrow its coverage dramatically above of 800 Hz.
When your speaker has a flat frequencie response on main axys but has not a even coverage through the frequency band that means that the reflected part of the sound will not be flat. Reflection is a great part of what we hear in a room. Therefore it is desirable that the coverage of a speaker is as even as possible through the audible frequency band.
If you are going to pair a 15" driver with a tweeter or a compression driver
this is hard to achieve because the 15" will start to nnarrow its coverage dramatically above of 800 Hz.
Who? Don't know.
But a main difference is *where* they are meant to be used.
A Pro speaker needs to cover *huge* space with high SPL, so will have both high sensitivity (97 to 103 dB/W) , with somewhat less acceptable, if a subwoofer.
Will also have as high directivity as possible and handle from 250W up ... *real* RMS watts, all night long.
Less than perfect frequency response may be accepted, considering many (most?) times they will be used in horrible sounding places anyway (Madison Square Garden, Stadiums, School Gyms, etc.), because high SPL takes precedence.
A Home speaker will be used in ... a home
, so much lower sensitivity is still acceptable, down to 84/86 dB/WYou are enjoying music at home, want wide range, low distortion, can sacrifice sensitivity.
You can not do PA work with home speakers, period.
You can use a Pro system at home, it will be "harsh" many times.
There are flat and sweet Pro systems, but they are *very* expensive, because they still have to meet sensitivity and high SPL specs.
Car speakers? : meet none of the above constraints: neither flat (that's an understatement) nor efficient (this is also an understatement).
Oh well.
O.K., i missed out the fact that you have a midrange speaker.
Then you can build a three way system and have a reasonable coverage.
The B&C DE7 must be paired to a horn and needs a special equalisation.
Still it is a compression driver and has because of its working principle more distortion than a soft dome tweeter.
Then you can build a three way system and have a reasonable coverage.
The B&C DE7 must be paired to a horn and needs a special equalisation.
Still it is a compression driver and has because of its working principle more distortion than a soft dome tweeter.
By now we were talking about the drivers, not the system itself.
I don't agree that a "pro" speaker chassis is louder but sounds "harsh" or can not make deep bass frequencys. There are very good speakkers for professional use that sound good, can reach very low frequencys and have low distortions. And yes, there cost some monney. It is a precision engineering, good materials and experience from people who know what they're doing. No woodoo.
Most hifi woofers are designed to go low in resonably small boxes. This is done at the cost of efficiency. They have quite low distortion at the intended application.
PA woofers have good efficiency in reasonably sized (regarding the application) boxes at the cost of low-end extension. They offer quite low distortion at high SPL levels and the offer very low distortion at low SPL levels. Many PA woofers beat a lot of HiFi ones in this respect.
If you want to get low bass form a PA woofer then the bax has to be large and special tunings are needed and you will also suffer from a loss of efficiency.
But the result can be very good - you will just not be able to use a tiny little box.
Regards
Chalres
PA woofers have good efficiency in reasonably sized (regarding the application) boxes at the cost of low-end extension. They offer quite low distortion at high SPL levels and the offer very low distortion at low SPL levels. Many PA woofers beat a lot of HiFi ones in this respect.
If you want to get low bass form a PA woofer then the bax has to be large and special tunings are needed and you will also suffer from a loss of efficiency.
But the result can be very good - you will just not be able to use a tiny little box.
Regards
Chalres
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