A soggy cone will put out very little bass. I suspect you're referring to the compliance of the suspension. In this case, a light coned driver with a low-compliance suspension would have a high resonance, and therefore be shorter on bass extension than an equivalent driver with a more compliant suspension. T=2pi*sqrt(m/k) where k is the spring constant, T is the time for one cycle.
Loud sounds better, until your ears distort. Then it sounds awful. However, I usually get parents yelling at me if I turn it up, so volume usually stays low. Following this and my previous posts, I've been able to get away with (for my volume demands) home drivers.
When I get my own place, things may be a little different.
My GedLee Abbeys sound better then any audophile type speaker I've ever owned and they use a B&C woofer and B&C CD.
i don't agree... I think that if one was to take some top flight pro components (say a pair of JBL 244*s compression drivers with modern Be diaphragms w/ an appropriate horn and a set or two of TAD 1601As and a pair of 2405s) and used some delicacy in the crossover design/optimization... the results can be absolutely stunning (even at VERY low levels) and the resolution can be really un-nerving....
who brought cost into this equation? I thought it was a pure performance sort of evaluation?
Pro woofer for home use
In my experience, the music sounds more like a live performance when using a pro woofer. Not sure if this is due to the fact that pro woofers are used in live performances or not. The sound of commercially available speakers in the 85 - 88 dB range, to me, sounds less dynamic, more generic, less like live music and more like a movie soundtrack. Kind of like comparing the "store brand" vanilla ice cream to a premium Ralph's Italian ice. I only have 3 standard woofer builds, and 2 pro woofer builds to go on. Just my opinion.
In my experience, the music sounds more like a live performance when using a pro woofer. Not sure if this is due to the fact that pro woofers are used in live performances or not. The sound of commercially available speakers in the 85 - 88 dB range, to me, sounds less dynamic, more generic, less like live music and more like a movie soundtrack. Kind of like comparing the "store brand" vanilla ice cream to a premium Ralph's Italian ice. I only have 3 standard woofer builds, and 2 pro woofer builds to go on. Just my opinion.
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Please come by for a demo. I'm at JFK airport. Easy to get to from almost anywhere.
I've been debating whether a pair of Thor subwoofers (2-3 cu. ft. for both) will sound better than one 18" pro woofer in a cubo sub (12 cu. ft.) or ported 18" pro sub tuned to roughly 25 Hz (8 cu. ft.), i.e. the RCF L18P200-N or the P400's look awesome too. The 200-N has a high moving mass (to me this means it might have a strong cone, I don't know?). Qts is .31. Fs is 28 Hz. The greatest advantage to using pro drivers for bass is the limiting of xmax and therefore distortion. I think some one already linked to Zaph's explanation of of why this is, but it should be intuitive to most people I would think. But I still like the concept of the Thor subwoofer, also not to mention every ported woofer I've ever heard didn't sound very good.
P Audio also has some pro woofers with demodulating rings (I'm sure others do) and some are waterproof also. Maybe RCF and other brands have the same features, I don't know. I'm not sure what makes the JBL 2242H cost 2-3 times as much as most pro woofers.
For a cubo sub I like the JBL 2242H just because I guess JBL make the "best" pro drivers, but I don't know much about pro audio.
P Audio also has some pro woofers with demodulating rings (I'm sure others do) and some are waterproof also. Maybe RCF and other brands have the same features, I don't know. I'm not sure what makes the JBL 2242H cost 2-3 times as much as most pro woofers.
For a cubo sub I like the JBL 2242H just because I guess JBL make the "best" pro drivers, but I don't know much about pro audio.
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If pro drivers don't sound good in a home system,please explain the recent popularity of the "Econowave" style speakers? Also,Wayne Parham at Pi Speakers has a great following.
Steve
I never said that ALL Pro Audio speakers sound bad in a home system.
There are some that are really bad picks for sound quality.
OTOH I really like BMS drivers.
Check out the Coda brand in Europe. They use only BMS drivers (That I know of).
There is a HUGE crossover of speakers that are used as control room and recording playback that will sound awesome in any home audio system. But the manufacturers of these speakers don’t throw in just any old driver (unless the speaker is cheap) and expect high sound quality.
I learned this lesson early.
The first speaker I bought in 1977 (about) was a SpeakLab 7 that used some Pro drivers.
A T350 tweeter
A HD8 Horn with a EV compression driver.
A 10” and a 12” home audio “air Suspension” (sealed box).
All of these drivers, both Pro and Home audio were inexpensive in their genre.
My friend bought a Tangent (Brand Name) speaker.
A ¾” KEF dome tweeter.
8” mid cone
8” low end cone
All high quality drivers made for home audio (very low sensitivity).
On my SpeakeLabs we would play rock and roll (Led Z anyone) and crank it up.
On my friends Tangent we would play Jazz.
Both speakers sounded great!
Then we switched the music.
The Jazz through my SpeakerLabs sounded edgy and distorted at any level.
The Led Z through the Tangent sounded weak with no punch.
If you want a blanket statement, I went through this further back in the thread.
One practical one I listen to every day.
A while back I bought an Acoustat model 3 full range ESL.
For sheer sound quality there are few speakers, pro or home audio, that can hold a candle to it. It weakness is sensitivity. I pour a DH-500 into it and it asks for more.
I am sure it will sound great right up to the point where “The Magic Smoke” comes out and at that point it will still be very quiet compared to what you can do with Pro drivers.
If you want to put your theory to the test go here and listen to what they have on display.
Audio Expo North America - AXPONA: Home Page
Some of these speakers may have pro drivers in them, but they will often be only the best there is.
I agree that some pro woofers and other drivers are just impossible to use in a normal home system. I've tried to work with these drivers in the simulation software and they just don't behave very well. Some work incredibly well though so it's just a matter of finding the good ones.
On the other hand, many of the hifi drivers are pure crap too. They may simulate ok but sound horrible, or they don't handle very much power, or something like that happens. For example, I have a pair of 3" Dayton "full range" aluminum cone drivers in these office speakers and they were so hot that I had to install foam over the fronts of the drivers! They didn't cost very much and this is what I should have expected. They simulated just fine in the software though.
On the other hand, many of the hifi drivers are pure crap too. They may simulate ok but sound horrible, or they don't handle very much power, or something like that happens. For example, I have a pair of 3" Dayton "full range" aluminum cone drivers in these office speakers and they were so hot that I had to install foam over the fronts of the drivers! They didn't cost very much and this is what I should have expected. They simulated just fine in the software though.
My main 2ch system (avatar)uses PAudio (12") Co-ax with a couple of servo subs under each side. All open baffle. This design comes from Danny at GR Research.
This configuration is one of the finest I have heard.
I guess it all comes down to quality and implementation.
Just like any other speaker system.
This configuration is one of the finest I have heard.
I guess it all comes down to quality and implementation.
Just like any other speaker system.
Many "pro" speakers are just designed for bass-reflex boxes too large for home use unless you make isobarics.
Then there's different kinds of "pro" and "PA"...distributed paging 70 volt system speakers are not going to make audio nirvana, nor will Aztec folded outdoor announciator horns. But a good set of studio monitor drivers might be great.
Remember that a LOT of the JBL and Altec pro PA stuff made its way into high-end "home" versions.
Then there's different kinds of "pro" and "PA"...distributed paging 70 volt system speakers are not going to make audio nirvana, nor will Aztec folded outdoor announciator horns. But a good set of studio monitor drivers might be great.
Remember that a LOT of the JBL and Altec pro PA stuff made its way into high-end "home" versions.
IMO there are actually some huge advantages to using "PA" type drivers in a home setting. Considering the following:
1. Horn loaded compression drivers for mid and high frequency provides controlled directivity, which helps eliminate problems with reflective surfaces in the room.
2. Horn loaded compression drivers for mid and high frequency provide extraordinary efficiency, allowing the use of far less amplification power, which can often translate to less amplification generated distortion.
3. Many low frequency pro drivers have exceptional tolerance to abuse, powerful motor structures and light weight diaphragms, resulting in accurate and controlled low frequency reproduction.
4. Most large "LF" drivers in the pro scene that are well made (15" and larger usually), are engineered to provide bottom end extension that is a better balance of efficiency and extension, 30-40hz bottom end, rather than 20hz or less. Granted, box loading can be designed to make any of these drivers play lower, but when properly utilized, a pro LF driver will often deliver 5-10dB better efficiency in the "musical" bass ranges while remaining "flat-ish" compared to many "hi-fi" or "home theater" LF drivers. For musical listening, this is a better approach. For movies... well... technically speaking there are many pro drivers I'd still consider even for 20hz reproduction.
1. Horn loaded compression drivers for mid and high frequency provides controlled directivity, which helps eliminate problems with reflective surfaces in the room.
2. Horn loaded compression drivers for mid and high frequency provide extraordinary efficiency, allowing the use of far less amplification power, which can often translate to less amplification generated distortion.
3. Many low frequency pro drivers have exceptional tolerance to abuse, powerful motor structures and light weight diaphragms, resulting in accurate and controlled low frequency reproduction.
4. Most large "LF" drivers in the pro scene that are well made (15" and larger usually), are engineered to provide bottom end extension that is a better balance of efficiency and extension, 30-40hz bottom end, rather than 20hz or less. Granted, box loading can be designed to make any of these drivers play lower, but when properly utilized, a pro LF driver will often deliver 5-10dB better efficiency in the "musical" bass ranges while remaining "flat-ish" compared to many "hi-fi" or "home theater" LF drivers. For musical listening, this is a better approach. For movies... well... technically speaking there are many pro drivers I'd still consider even for 20hz reproduction.
I also have pro-gear in my home. 4 Renkus-Heinz Cabinets and a pair of Axe cabinets that I use for subs plus a Diamond Audio sub for a total of 7' of LF not counting a half dozen vintage home speakers used in home theater, and smaller zones: (Pioneer, Ampex, and Celestion).
The 4 RH cabinet and 2 Axe Cabinet LF drivers are all McCauley.
Im driving my pro-speakers with pro-amplifiers.
There are a few downsides to this setup:
Unless we trim the LF a bit we have been known to knock photos off of the walls in our neighbors homes. Fortunately I believe that they have all addressed that issue.
We have met some friendly neighborhood patrolmen who told us to turn down the sound even though we were not listening at high levels (LF does travel FAR).
Because we are audiophile fanatics using only AB class rack amps, we spend a lot in electricity.
Upsides however outweigh the downsides.
We never push anything hard enough to get anywhere near feedback or distortion. We have way more headroom than we will ever need!
Because of this, the sound is quite accurate and delightful.
We have more power when we need it, such as entertaining.
Pro gear is HIGHLY serviceable and repairable so we buy once, keep forever.
Parts are AVAILABLE for many components.
Same applies to our vintage consumer gear, but not so much with modern gear unless it is high quality (and price).
Pro audio uses BALANCED XLR and/or TRS connectors which is optimum and ideal for whole house audio distribution. MUCH better than trying to pull long runs with RCA cables without attenuation.
My thoughts on pro gear in the home?
I do not understand why EVERYONE isn't going this route.
The 4 RH cabinet and 2 Axe Cabinet LF drivers are all McCauley.
Im driving my pro-speakers with pro-amplifiers.
There are a few downsides to this setup:
Unless we trim the LF a bit we have been known to knock photos off of the walls in our neighbors homes. Fortunately I believe that they have all addressed that issue.
We have met some friendly neighborhood patrolmen who told us to turn down the sound even though we were not listening at high levels (LF does travel FAR).
Because we are audiophile fanatics using only AB class rack amps, we spend a lot in electricity.
Upsides however outweigh the downsides.
We never push anything hard enough to get anywhere near feedback or distortion. We have way more headroom than we will ever need!
Because of this, the sound is quite accurate and delightful.
We have more power when we need it, such as entertaining.
Pro gear is HIGHLY serviceable and repairable so we buy once, keep forever.
Parts are AVAILABLE for many components.
Same applies to our vintage consumer gear, but not so much with modern gear unless it is high quality (and price).
Pro audio uses BALANCED XLR and/or TRS connectors which is optimum and ideal for whole house audio distribution. MUCH better than trying to pull long runs with RCA cables without attenuation.
My thoughts on pro gear in the home?
I do not understand why EVERYONE isn't going this route.
May be our neighbors are not as nice as yours. Worst, some neighbors will say it is okay while actually they don't feel that it is okay.
I think pro woofer in general is not good for home use because when it is designed, compromise have been taken to make sure the driver has long-throw capability, a critical requirement for outdoor speaker system. (Note that even with high power amps, ordinary woofers for home use do not have this capability)
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