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Old 11th August 2011, 06:56 AM   #11
Ether is offline Ether  Indonesia
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Hi again guys, thanks for answers.

Yeah I have received input to connect all speakers in chain but when I got that info was too late already, the cable was already installed :S Any downside about this and if there is one, how could I counter it?

Thanks in advance,

Eth.
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Old 11th August 2011, 06:58 AM   #12
Ether is offline Ether  Indonesia
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Oh, and Pano thanks for the link bro, I will give it a good read and decipher it slowly

Eth.
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Old 11th August 2011, 11:16 AM   #13
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Forget the stereo idea.

The system needs to be set up as a commercial 70.7 volt mono speaker system.

Forget the mix console as it isn't needed. A simple TOA A912-II will work fine.

It has 8 channels and you can use different plug in modules. Line or mic as

needed. It can be designed as simple or complex as you would like.

What I mentioned is simple. The system can and should be more complex to include

an EQ such a a DFR22, multiple delays, multiple amps just to get going here. Two mic's

per area. If computer is used then a transformer will be needed in order to get rid of

the 60Hz noise from the computer. Also a direct box or two needs to be considered.

Also provisions for line level input into the system from each area. If the area is going

to be divided into smaller zones then additional thought must be given to making each

area a stand alone system able to combine thru a automatic switching system of

some type.



If you want to email me I will design a complete system. I do this for a living.

Tell me what you want to do and I will design a fail proof turn key system.


Quote:
I've worked in 100s of ballrooms that have ceiling speakers. Generally they don't work well, so I always brought my own. I can remember only 1 exception to this over many years. So don't expect too much. It will work, if you plan correctly.


You haven't been in one that I have designed or worked on.

Last edited by Original Burnedfingers; 11th August 2011 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 11th August 2011, 02:27 PM   #14
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6BG6GA View Post
You haven't been in one that I have designed or worked on.
You never know. But I'll trust you. The only really good ceiling speaker system I remember was in a hotel in Columbia S.C. And it was a Bose system. Yeah, Bose. Sounded great and worked flawlessly. I didn't bother to unpack my speakers. That was a house sound system done right. We need more of those.

Ether, you should jump at the chance to have 6BG6GA design your system. Having someone who does it professionally help out will save you a lot of headaches and mistakes.

Ditto on the direct boxes (DI). You'll need one or two to get sound from a laptop to the stage. And don't forget a CD player at in the sound booth, tho those are becoming less used.
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Old 12th August 2011, 12:16 AM   #15
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Pano,

As you know you cannot get away with hooking a computer straight to a direct box because 90 times out of 100 you will end up with hum. The solution is to use a S2M or something similar with the direct box for a noise free source. Use a lot of them in churches with the flock now utilizing computers to save the sinners. As mentioned the ballroom/ meeting room systems suffer the same problems. everyone is under the illusion that you can plug anything into a system and it will work flawlessly well it usually doesn't.

I'm willing to help in the dilemma Ether has. I will admit right now I an curious as to your answer if its sarcasm.

I must admit that I didn't read the thread before answering. It sounds like the system is wired and speakers are purchased? If so too bad. No offense but I always cringe when someone not in the field decides to engineer something because to be blunt they don't have the knowledge or experience to come up with something workable.
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Old 12th August 2011, 12:55 AM   #16
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Unless you have a good budget to purchase the necessary equipment I would suggest that you settle on either A or B as the stage setting. For a proper system that will focus on intelligibility there is a need for multiple delays and multiple amplifiers. The goal being the point source. The further away from the stage setting the more the delay so that one thinks he or she is hearing from the front. This is the proper way to do it for a convention system.

As mentioned additional switching equipment would be needed in order to run this in the "B" mode also and to switch back and forth as the situation requires. With the stage on the side of the room the speaker lines will become longer left to right and you will still need the delays but at different settings. Number of delays will be less and amplification channels less and delay times will change.

In the ballroom mode where dancing and music would be played I would set it up as one zone I will call it with no delay lines.

Ballroom no delays

"A" system stage at end will require more delays and more amplifier channels.

"B" system on the short side of the room will require less delay' and less channels of amplification.

As mentioned there is equipment out there that can be set up and programed to switch to the "A" mode and have the correct delays and amplification channels. When switched to "B" it will change to that mode. When set to ball room the mode changes again. It can be done this way which is the easiest and it can also be done manually believe it or not.

Speakers... You mention 10?

When I walk a room (finished system)with pink noise on and my sound level meter in my hand I want to see less than a 2db change. Ten speaker wouldn't work for me. I want to see a nice overlap in coverage. Put your calculations in a program called ease and see what the response will be. I can usually look at a room and tell you the number and type/name of the speaker for good coverage.

Bottom line is this..... Its not as simple as throwing in some speakers to make noise and calling it good. The system must be designed considering the usage of the system. Now days Hotels make up a bunch of income by having a lavish extremely good working system that doubles as a convention system with multiple focal points and as a classy ball room system. It takes money to do so but the pay off is its booked 98-100% of the time making money for the Hotel. Sorry but what you have figured it doomed to be a so so system. In other words it kind works sometimes you can understand a speaker and when used for music you can almost enjoy it.
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Old 12th August 2011, 01:07 AM   #17
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If I figured meters to feet correctly I come up with a ceiling height of roughly 13ft. A length of 78feet and a width of 36feet.

The program roughly figured a speaker placement of 12ft on center. In other words a speaker at 12feet and at 24ft going across on the 36ft width and a speaker at roughly 12,24,36,48,and 60 ft going down the long way.

The program is banking on the height to help with a broader coverage.

Well, its junk to be blunt. It a basic commercial speaker calculator program designed to provide a basic coverage.

I would be willing to guess that the coverage will vary by 5-6db walking the floor.

You will have to increase the speaker count to provide better coverage.
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Old 12th August 2011, 01:35 AM   #18
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6BG6GA View Post
As you know you cannot get away with hooking a computer straight to a direct box because 90 times out of 100 you will end up with hum.
Well I guess it depends on the DI. I always send laptop to the console via a direct box, no hum problems. Will have to look at what box I use. It's active, I think.

Quote:
I will admit right now I an curious as to your answer if its sarcasm.
I was just poking fun. You set me up for that one. Can't say I've ever done a show in Hawkeye-land. Never even been there. But from what I know, stuff is usually done right in that part of the world, so no worries.
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Old 12th August 2011, 10:46 AM   #19
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Pano,

To be honest here I don't know if I want to waste anymore of my time. I have the experience in years and systems. I have been all over the country working on someone else's crap. I have zero time for most DJ's because of their attitude and lack of knowledge and experience. A typical DJ system is throw something up on a couple of speaker stands apply mega power to some very inefficient speakers eq the hell out of it by ear and call it good and call yourself a professional.

From a moderator like yourself I expected more than a sarcastic reply and attitude. I'm not a Hawkeye fan nor do I consider this to be Hawkeye land and maybe we do things better here. In N.C. I only have a football stadium that I've worked on so I cannot comment as to the back woods equipment used in the hill country. I can tell you this much...the system under consideration is an abortion in the making. You guys go ahead and have at it.

Last edited by Original Burnedfingers; 12th August 2011 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 12th August 2011, 01:57 PM   #20
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6:

Unfortunately you are right in many points, but there is no need to get cheesed off. I have designed and managed hundreds of installs. From small boardrooms to convention centers and a 50k+ seat stadium. The only places I learnd to stay away from are churches, as each congregation has an expert (worked at Radio Shack for 6 weeks).

And yes, the "system" under discussion here will be a dissaster and Ether may have to leave town for a while! E
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