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Old 25th April 2010, 05:50 PM   #11
taj is offline taj
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Just to be very clear. The PA on a stick products (see picture 1) are not what I am talking about. They are FAR too small for the type of bands I am talking about. These certainly existed in the 80's too, just not in molded plastic. Nothing new there.

I am, however talking about something to compete with the bigger modules that are readily available from all the usual vendors, (see picture 2.) My concept is slightly smaller, but I would expect it to sound a lot better than a pair of 15 inch drivers and a horn.

If I was considering the smaller form factor, there's no doubt in my mind that Earl's products would kick these plastic satellite butts down the back staircase.

..Todd
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Last edited by taj; 25th April 2010 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 25th April 2010, 06:09 PM   #12
imix500 is offline imix500  United States
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I just bring the appropriate number of CQ's or UPA*P's and complimentary subs to the club being that I have access to just about every Meyer product they make. (One of the perks of my day job) But I was recently in a small club, maybe 50' x 50' where the band brought a pair of l'acoustics ARCS' and a pair of SB118 subs a side and it sounded brilliant. I think pattern and low frequency control are often overlooked in small club systems.
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Old 25th April 2010, 06:12 PM   #13
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I love Meyer and L'Acoustics gear. My old sound company was a Meyer vendor (might still be, not sure) and they use L'Acoustics arrays now for concerts. I used UPA's in clubs but they still seemed a bit small. The MSL's were better, but wow, they were expensive.

..Todd

Last edited by taj; 25th April 2010 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 25th April 2010, 06:19 PM   #14
imix500 is offline imix500  United States
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If it says Meyer on it, it's expensive. A single M3D or M3Dsub is around $10k. I think that's still the most expensive thing they make aside from the LCS/Meyer Matrix3 systems.
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Old 25th April 2010, 06:32 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taj View Post
About a hundred years ago I was a soundman working for a small concert sound company...
Better you be a good one.

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4. Narrow vertical dispersion. Club ceilings are typically quite low with hard reflective surfaces. It's imperative that we keep as much sound (mid/highs) from reflecting off the ceiling back into the main audio 'beam' in order to reduce all sorts of nasty sounding interactions.
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For high's I used a pair of vertically stacked 1" throat compression drivers mounted onto elliptical OS waveguides. 1" drivers extend the response upwards better than 2" throat compression drivers, which don't go high enough for my taste. I don't like them without tweeters, and I don't want to go there. So I stacked 2 such driver/waveguides to couple and produce/handle the high level.
The stacked tweeters/CDs, like you have, "mounted onto elliptical OS waveguides", are not sure a good idea.

Last edited by Inductor; 25th April 2010 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 25th April 2010, 09:48 PM   #16
Xoc1 is online now Xoc1  United Kingdom
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Some modern 1" compression drivers can manage to keep up with a pair of 8" midrange drivers.
I'm thinking particularly about Radian 1" drivers that are about 110 to 112dB/W.
If I was starting a project like this from scratch I would probably use a 2" compression driver between a pair of 10" mids.
The 2" compession drivers are still 110db plus but can take more power and bandwidth.
Again Radian make reasonable examples, and you can also convert a 2" JBL mid driver to cover the HF with a radian diaphram.
Keep this as a separate enclosure and then it can be kept small.
If possible I would do without the lower mid at all, and crossover to the bass box at around 200 Hz, but You seem to be aiming for high SPL. Maybe the lower mid cab could be optional depending on the venue. Easy to configure if you are using a digital crossover.
For the Bass a reflex cab is the better choice for smaller venues. Maybe the manifold type design would help with compactness.
Modern 18" drivers can take a lot more power. Some 18" drivers with 5" coils perform well at 1KW per driver!
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Old 26th April 2010, 07:32 AM   #17
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They seem to be commercially produced identical products to me.
That's what I'm saying - biggest difference is in enclosure material, fiber reinforced plastic vs. MDF.


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I haven't done the arithmetic, but intuitively that doesn't sound correct (the keeping up with the rest part, I mean).
Trust me, one decent compression driver will keep up with even two 15" mids - comps have typically 110...115 dB sensitivity and can handle 50...100 W, giving no less than 125 dB output, often even 130 dB whereas four typical 6" can give about 127 in ideal conditions. AND, you need a horn with narrow horizontal , not only vertical, dispersion in this setup, I'd say 35...40, certainly no more than 50, degrees to aid with correct splaying.

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Two 8" drivers in this MTM configuration would be somewhat better for sound (dispersion pattern and phase interactions) but would provide less output, handle less power and not make as efficient use of the available baffle area.
Two typical 8" speakers would handle 400...500 W, have 98...101 dB sensitivity and give 124...128 dB output. Plus they will have less comb filtering used 1 per side and can be effectively splayed with minimal comb filtering problems.

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I thought about that too. But I couldn't think of a situation where they would not stack exactly under the rest. And it would mean more trips to the truck, but obviously smaller/lighter trips. It's a trade-off worth considering, but then I thought about carrying versus rolling on wheels and went with the low-mids included.
Wheels don't help much on stairs, having separate 15" section and 8"+horn sections is much better opinion. I personally very much prefer more boxes and trips to the car to lugging that 60 kg monster around and up the stairs, then trying to get it stacked up

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Old school in looks only. Any PA on a stick configuration is not going to handle the huge power/volume requirements. Speaker technology has advanced a lot, but only in refinements (Neo magnets, carbon fiber or Kevlar cones, waveguides over horns, etc.), but drivers are still the same approximate size as they were in the 80's. But this system is easily HALF the size of the 80's equivalent.

I mentioned earlier that club band PA's used to use concert gear for club use. That was big and bulky -- horn loaded mids, etc. That part has evolved a lot. And concert gear has also evolved a lot, but there's not much there we can re-purpose (See my comments about line arrays) for club band use.

..Todd
Agreed, except I love these horn cabs - they're big, but you can get them loud even with your granny's kitchen radio's power output Now we have loads of these 1000 W drivers in small boxes, connected to 4 kW amps and processed to death, and then we have to worry about supplying all those amperes to the amp racks - not much progress now that energy is becoming expensive, IMO.
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Old 26th April 2010, 08:44 AM   #18
col is offline col  Australia
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Hi Taj,

Great thread. I am actually trying to build pretty much exactly what you are talking about here. Except I'm building it more for DJ/electronic music instead of bands. I won't be using DSP crossover though as I prefer good opamp analogue. That may be a personal preference though.

I'm on a budget, sharing with a partner in crime. So far we have managed to accumalate:

4 x 18" Peavey Low Riders these will go into 4x 165lt bass reflex subs (got 15"s in at the moment)tuned to 37hz, not completed yet. I want to keep them compact and easy to move.

4 x 15" P-Audio E15-350N (110ltr bass reflex, not built yet ).

4 x 12" P-Audio E12-250N (60 litre sealed)

4 X 1" Selenium D220-Ti 16ohm coupled to the "econowave" JBL PT horn (dayton copy)

plus a couple of 10" booth monitors.


Some photos of the gradual building of speakers here:

Minirig v7


I'm, using a ESP retro-fitted 80's ART crossover, crossing at 100hz, 500hz, 2.5khz see:

MINIRIG ART 4 Way 24db Crossover ESP P125 Retro-fit

For amplification I'm trying to keep it all class-D amps, Iv'e built a 2ohm 4x100W channel amp for the mid-highs. I have a 4ohm 2 x 400w Hypex UcD400 for the mid-bass and I'm planning on getting one of the Peavey IPR3000 for the subs when they are built.

All the enclosures are made from 18mm form ply, that my partner got for free.

cheers,
col.
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Last edited by col; 26th April 2010 at 08:51 AM. Reason: too many beers
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Old 26th April 2010, 10:15 AM   #19
Xoc1 is online now Xoc1  United Kingdom
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I won't be using DSP crossover though as I prefer good opamp analogue.
The esp crossover boards that you are using look like they will perform well.
All you need to do now is ensure that you have the right hi-pass for your subs, constant directivity eq for your compresion drivers, 8 channels of limiting for your amps and any EQ / compression that you choose to use.
All of a sudden a one u high DSP crossover looks like a bargain!
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Old 26th April 2010, 11:46 AM   #20
col is offline col  Australia
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Iv'e picked up some other analogue rack gear:

for limiting:

APHEX Systems 720 / 722 Dominator II Precision Multiband Peak Limiter

For EQ:

http://www.ashly.com/images/product/.../mqx2150-f.jpg

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