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Old 7th May 2007, 09:02 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by azrix


The horn is probably the biggest offender of what you don't like. Staying away from compression drivers with metal surrounds is probably a good idea too, unless you want to spend the money on TAD drivers. Radian and Selenium I know make drivers without metal surrounds and with metal domes. BMS, Beyma, and B&C all make drivers with cloth domes and surrounds.

Renkus Heinz use Earl Geddes's OS waveguide in most of their designs, AFAIK. You can build an OS waveguide fairly easily if you have some experience with fiberglass or a big enough lathe. You also might look at some other horn designs, like Peavey's Quadratic waveguide horns or something in the Tractrix or Le Cleach families. I've been wondering if JBL's Progressive Transition waveguide horns are any good myself.

http://www.gedlee.com is a good starting point
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/waveguides1.htm is also a good place to learn about OS waveguides.
I will take a look at those websites. I hunt ebay often and i see people parting out boxes all the time. so if there is a horn that is good or drivers etc, i can try and find each specific part and put them together. Maybe i can find some R-H horns on ebay and pair them to some brand of drivers etc. I have many contacts at various companies as well and i can see if i can talk some parts out of someone at a discount.

Lathing out my own horns is probably not my first choice if i can buy some that perform equally as well.

Zc
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Old 7th May 2007, 09:30 PM   #12
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The Labsub forum is biased towards the labhorn(obviously ) but there is some good info on diy solutions for the bottom octaves of your pa rig.

Other than that www.speakerplans.com which has already been mentioned.

As an aside www.jblpro.com have a lot of interesting papers to read.

Cheers,

Rob.
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Old 8th May 2007, 02:16 AM   #13
gtphill is offline gtphill  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zero Cool
[B]As this is a girls jam, and mostly pop/rock/r&b type stuff with small crowds, it doesn't have to be loud. however the drummer is louder then the pa and i usually don't even mic her kit with the exception of the kick drum. But i do mic the snare and run it through a verb and just put the verb in the house.
This is a great trick I have used several times before. Most FOH guys would not figure that out, so kudos.

Quote:
and the guitar player is nick named "Miss Deaf" so house volume is generally set by those two. I try and keep it as low as i can. But i do suffer a bit of fader creep as the night goes on and my ear threshold changes, but i try and keep an eye on that.
Put it on a chair and point across the stage angled up at her ears, usually gets them to turn down and get the brightness under control.

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I am not completely opposed to Bi-amping, well tri-amping with the subs if it adds something significant to the design. it just adds a degree of complexity/problems and i always try and keep things as simple and as easy as possible. So lets talk about it and we can work our way through the design and go from there.
I guess I mean triamping from your perspective then. Passive mid/hi, biamped lows and subs.

Quote:
I was thinking also, that if there is a pre-made box that we can modify, i am not opposed to that either. we can yank out the stock components and x-over and put in whatever.
There are plenty of pre-made boxes you would not need to modify...

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My Main complaint with Pro boxes is the top end. they all sound harsh or honky, nasely etc to me.
Nasal is 500-800 range, and is not a HF issue. Harsh is usually a 3k-5k range problem, and is often a result of underdesign of the crossover. Honky on the old JBL stuff was combination of the flare design, and the drivers' mechanical resonance. It, too, lies in the 2k'ish region.
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Old 8th May 2007, 02:24 AM   #14
gtphill is offline gtphill  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by azrix
[B]

The horn is probably the biggest offender of what you don't like. Staying away from compression drivers with metal surrounds is probably a good idea too, unless you want to spend the money on TAD drivers. Radian and Selenium I know make drivers without metal surrounds and with metal domes. BMS, Beyma, and B&C all make drivers with cloth domes and surrounds.
Metal surrounds can be a problem, but do not have to be. Work hardening of metal surrounds is a fairly important non-audio problem that has to be dealt with. Beyma, B&C, 18Sound,, and Community all make drivers with plastic diaphragms, not cloth. Mylar is the most common material. A lot of the aforementioned Renkus Heinz products utilize Beyma HF drivers. Metal drivers with rubber surrounds can have problems with the surround behaving out of phase to the diaphragm, unless designed carefully.

Quote:
Renkus Heinz use Earl Geddes's OS waveguide in most of their designs, AFAIK.
As do JBL, Genelec, and a few other manufacturers. 18Sound sells several prefabricated oblate spheriod waveguides.

Quote:
You also might look at some other horn designs, like Peavey's Quadratic waveguide horns or something in the Tractrix
The quadratic throat waveguide was cooked up by Charlie Hughes, a fellow GT'er. He is no longer with Peavey. The tractrix is an interesting flare, and has a loyal following outside the pro sound community.
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Old 8th May 2007, 08:55 AM   #15
azrix is offline azrix  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by gtphill


Metal surrounds can be a problem, but do not have to be. Work hardening of metal surrounds is a fairly important non-audio problem that has to be dealt with. Beyma, B&C, 18Sound,, and Community all make drivers with plastic diaphragms, not cloth. Mylar is the most common material. A lot of the aforementioned Renkus Heinz products utilize Beyma HF drivers. Metal drivers with rubber surrounds can have problems with the surround behaving out of phase to the diaphragm, unless designed carefully.
Ah, plastic. That's what I meant. I think of polyester as "fabric" for some reason and that's what BMS uses. The Radian and some Selenium drivers use plastic surrounds, not rubber, or fabric for that matter then.


Quote:

As do JBL, Genelec, and a few other manufacturers. 18Sound sells several prefabricated oblate spheriod waveguides.
I do not know of any JBL's that use compression drivers that also have an OS waveguide. Is there such a thing? I know their studio monitors have waveguides but those use dome tweeters.

Are you sure 18Sound makes OS waveguides? The terminology they use is "Unique Eighteen Sound elliptical shape". They don't use the word "waveguide" at all. I'm not saying they aren't OS waveguides, I've just not seen enough info to convince me that they are....
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Old 8th May 2007, 10:58 PM   #16
gtphill is offline gtphill  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by azrix


Ah, plastic. That's what I meant. I think of polyester as "fabric" for some reason and that's what BMS uses. The Radian and some Selenium drivers use plastic surrounds, not rubber, or fabric for that matter then.


I suppose you could make a fabric from polyesters like Mylar...

Quote:
I do not know of any JBL's that use compression drivers that also have an OS waveguide. Is there such a thing? I know their studio monitors have waveguides but those use dome tweeters.
I was thinking of the studio monitors in both cases. The waveguide purpose remains the same...

Quote:
Are you sure 18Sound makes OS waveguides? The terminology they use is "Unique Eighteen Sound elliptical shape". They don't use the word "waveguide" at all. I'm not saying they aren't OS waveguides, I've just not seen enough info to convince me that they are....
You know, now that you mention it, I forget where I got the information about that, but i remember the source as being informed and reliable.
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Old 12th May 2007, 11:58 AM   #17
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This thread seems to have died and we havent really gotten any where or even started discussing drivers.....

I agree that Metal dome drivers tend to sound harsh. granted i am talking about drivers i worked with 10-15 years ago and a lot has changed. Metal dome with non metal surrounds may be better. then again non metal diaphrams may be best i dont know.

The Community M4 is still one of the best sounding midrange horn drivers i have heard. and that is an 6" all carbon fiber diaphram with a rubber or latex surround i think. But the horns available for this 4" driver are way way too big. I have heard that someone once removed the phase plug from a M4 and used it without a horn for a set of studio monitors down in atlanta someplace. i think it was greg almonds pegasus studio or something like that. i may have that info all mixed up...


Ok so i have been looking on ebay. and i see quite a few B&C, and Renkus Heinz drivers. and some Radians. the radians are EXPENSIVE!

There was also a nice set of of 8" radian coax drivers i was watching. 8" cast aluminum frame woofer with a 1 compression driver. specs were too bad. but specs arent everything. But again, crossing over at 1.8K right in the middle of the vocal range.

Beside the TAD drivers, is there another model that is highley reguarded as such?



Zc
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Old 12th May 2007, 02:05 PM   #18
gtphill is offline gtphill  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zero Cool
[B]This thread seems to have died and we havent really gotten any where or even started discussing drivers.....
The design of pro sound speakers has little to do with the drivers. Horns, fly hardware, crossovers, array considerations dominate. Most pro manufacturers simply give a set of parameters to an OEM for their drivers....

Quote:
Ok so i have been looking on ebay. and i see quite a few B&C, and Renkus Heinz drivers. and some Radians. the radians are EXPENSIVE!
All of the quality compression drivers worth using are expensive. Peavey probably has the best bang for the buck driver right now. And, with the restructuring of DDS, previously THE source of custom horn flares, things are getting tricky. Also, undersized horn flares are going to cause some of the same problems you have already complained about.

Let me be fairly candid. You don't really have the budget for quality drivers ($1000/speaker), and have no experience building pro sound speaker cabinets. This combination doesn't give me a lot of enthusiasm for a project.

My advice to you--look for a pair of USED Community SLS960s. This is a quality three way PASSIVE design. The midrange is the baby brother of the M4 you like. You should be able to find these for under 1k/box.

This is not a new design, so what you purchase will likely need some TLC. You can take the cabs apart and learn about troubleshooting compression drivers, checking and possibly refilling the ferrofluid in the magnetic gap, checking components on crossovers, possibly changing diaphragms, removing and repainting grills and hardware, etc. Enough to make it feel DIY, without starting from scratch!

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/23083/0/

Community is a very helpful company. The RS, and then SLS have been around for many many years, and is a proven design. The SLS version has a much better HF driver, and better crossover design.
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Old 13th May 2007, 12:19 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by gtphill


Let me be fairly candid. You don't really have the budget for quality drivers ($1000/speaker), and have no experience building pro sound speaker cabinets. This combination doesn't give me a lot of enthusiasm for a project.

WOW, you have made a lot of assumptions here.

While i dont have funds to just run out and buy a set of boxes at 1k each+ today. I do have the funds to build these in stages. coulple hundred here, couple hundred there. and i am willing to spend whatever to build these. the budget has never been the issue.

Secondly. I have access to a full blown woodshop and i have built many many many boxes, cabinets, road cases, subs, etc and have studied the construction of many PA cabs. Some 20 plus years ago i built a very large set of PA cabs (copies from a then local sound co's cabs) that are still in use today(by someone else).
I also have my own machine shop complete with small bridgeport type mill.

I am interested in doing this for the excersize of if. the learning process.

Thank you to everyone that put forth positive information here. But i see this isnt going to go anwhere here. there is just too much no you cant do this, and not enough, yeah lets try this and give it a shot. that is very frustrating. not at all what i would have expected from DIY'ers.

I think i will try and find some prosound forums where people are a little more positive....

Zcx
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