Best test tracks for imaging - Page 4

FastEddy · 15th December 2006, 08:39 PM

" ... You might also like this discussion, about vinyl vs. digital: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...?threadid=91780 ..."

I know that vinyl can, under the right conditions and equipment mix, sound the best and have the most dynamic range ... but my experience, technically and listening wise, DVD-A comes as close to vinyl reproduction as modern A to D and D to A converters can manage.

" ... I read a review saying that XRCD is supposed to sound better than SACD! ..."

There is always some outfit trying to make the CD format better, but as the adages go, "garbage in = garbage out and you get no bread with one meatball"

You can't really improve on the basic 16-bit CD format. 16-bits is 16-bits = diminished headroom = reduced dynamics. This is root cause of Bob Dylan's complaints with Sony production engineers making a hashup of his latest CD ... overly compressed (in order to fit into the 16-bit CD format) leaving no dynamic headroom in relation to the studio 24-bit digital masters. The only way to reproduce 24-bit digital studio masters correctly is with a 24-bit reproduction format = 24-bit / 96k multi channel or 24-bit/192k encoded Dolby or THX (multi-channel) ... or vinyl.

As long as the musicians and studio engineers are using equipment like this to make the studio masters:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...1814-main.html
http://rolandus.com/products/product...2&ParentId=114
http://www.digitalaudio.dk/ax24.htm ... " The Dynamic range is between 118 & 121 dB and the Mic pre equivalent noise floor is at -130 dB. "

... the disc and record production should be as good the masters. Vinyl does this. easily. DVD-A does this, usually. SACD can do it, but seldom does. 16-bit CD can never reproduce 24-bit/96K stereo, let alone 24-bit/192k multi-channel (there just is not enough room on the CD disc for the full content ~= 10 pounds of content in a 2 pound bag = 5 gigabytes can't fit on a 1/2 gigabyte optical disc).

Music publishers are easily able to do either or both, CD and DVD-A without any increases in costs of manufacture ... and they could do both on the same disc (sideA = 24-bit DVD-A, sideB = 16-bit CD) with very little increase in production costs.

rdf · 15th December 2006, 08:54 PM

One thing to watch about DVD-A. As I understand it most releases come with surround tracks. I'm trying to find documented confirmation but I'm 99.99999% or more certain that surround formats uses a form of DSP based on the Head Related Transfer Function on the rear channels to create a more convincing impression of space. Similar to Q-Sound. When played back on any 2-channel player (I own in any case), those DSP'ed surround tracks are flat mixed back into the front channels. On movie surround tracks that's certainly the case, of the DVD-A discs I own my ear leads me to suspect the same.

End result, DVD-A playback over two channel systems potentially includes DSP-altered surround channels in the mix. That said, the best digital recordings I have are DVD-A. Also one of the worst (the Naxos Groff disc, shutter.) I would welcome a conversion to DVD-A.

FastEddy · 15th December 2006, 10:03 PM

rdf: " ... about DVD-A ... I'm trying to find documented confirmation but I'm 99.99999% or more certain that surround formats uses a form of DSP based on the Head Related Transfer Function on the rear channels to create a more convincing impression of space. Similar to Q-Sound. ..."

Press Release: " ... Classic 24/192 DVD-A discs will be Universal DVD discs in the sense that they will be designed to play on both DVD Audio and DVD Video players. This will involve filling the audio title set with 24/192 data and the video title set with 24/96 data. These discs will therefore also play on universal players that support SACD and DVD Video. The transfers will be done using a specially designed battery powered 24/192 Analog to Digital converter designed by Kevin Halverson of Muse Electronics from original master tapes mastered ..." From: http://www.classicrecords.com/newsle...cfm?Article=94

Some record publishers, producers and reproducers actually try to duplicate the original studio masters in full DVD-A 24-bit/192k multichannel optical discs, seeking quality above all else ... without resorting to the mish mash of using the the various "quality" 16-bit compression and expansion (24 bit master to 16-bit CD digital back to "24-bit" DVD type disc). These mathamatical manipulations may seem like a good idea to cost cutting greedheads and middle management marketing types in the front offices of the likes of Sony, but they really will not cut it when the sophisticated customer discovers this ruse. Using big words to describe this outright fraud will not wash.

FYI to All: Sony and other major mass market publishers have been deliberately producing CD's with overly compressed content and distortion ... in order to make their (more expensive) SACD sound and DVD video tracks sound better. The most recent example is Bob Dylan's "Modern Times", available in two versions ( http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Times-B...dp/B000GFLAI0/ and http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Times-D.../dp/B000GRTQSE ). The mass market CD is overtly distorted and obviously sounds compressed, yet the same tracks on the video DVD are much better, the difference being chiefly that the CD (44k, overly compressed) content and DVD (48k content) WITH significant improvements and remixing by the Sony production engineers. Sony is trying to cut their share out of the middle of the pie, leaving Dylan with nothing left to do but to compalin to the clueless media. Fortunately Dylan owns the rights to his studio masters and soon there should be a 24-bit (hopefully DVD-A) release of this very interesting album ...

Destroyer OS. · 16th December 2006, 04:11 AM

Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon
180 Gram version, new.

This is the best sounding one. There are a couple of websites that still have it in stock, many are sold out. You think the Japanese one was nice? Grab this if you can, while you can!

Talk about imaging delight...

You can hear weird sounds that do circles in front of you and dance around then run away. There are people that run from right to left, while also going toward you and away from you. It is just a blast to listen too.

FastEddy · 18th December 2006, 04:50 PM

rdf: " ... One thing to watch about DVD-A. As I understand it most releases come with surround tracks. ..."

check this out: " ... The transfers will be done using a specially designed battery powered 24/192 Analog to Digital converter ..." http://www.classicrecords.com/newsle...cfm?Article=88

... and these guys don't do "surround sound" or dolby unless the masters are made for such ... relying on the customers' equipment to add the various EQ / "expansion" or "decompression ... or not.

(I may have already submitted this link, but it should be repeated in any discussion about what some producers and reproducers do and others don't.)

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15th December 2006, 08:39 PM	#31
FastEddy diyAudio Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: North Californie	" ... You might also like this discussion, about vinyl vs. digital: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...?threadid=91780 ..." I know that vinyl can, under the right conditions and equipment mix, sound the best and have the most dynamic range ... but my experience, technically and listening wise, DVD-A comes as close to vinyl reproduction as modern A to D and D to A converters can manage. " ... I read a review saying that XRCD is supposed to sound better than SACD! ..." There is always some outfit trying to make the CD format better, but as the adages go, "garbage in = garbage out and you get no bread with one meatball" You can't really improve on the basic 16-bit CD format. 16-bits is 16-bits = diminished headroom = reduced dynamics. This is root cause of Bob Dylan's complaints with Sony production engineers making a hashup of his latest CD ... overly compressed (in order to fit into the 16-bit CD format) leaving no dynamic headroom in relation to the studio 24-bit digital masters. The only way to reproduce 24-bit digital studio masters correctly is with a 24-bit reproduction format = 24-bit / 96k multi channel or 24-bit/192k encoded Dolby or THX (multi-channel) ... or vinyl. As long as the musicians and studio engineers are using equipment like this to make the studio masters: http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...1814-main.html http://rolandus.com/products/product...2&ParentId=114 http://www.digitalaudio.dk/ax24.htm ... " The Dynamic range is between 118 & 121 dB and the Mic pre equivalent noise floor is at -130 dB. " ... the disc and record production should be as good the masters. Vinyl does this. easily. DVD-A does this, usually. SACD can do it, but seldom does. 16-bit CD can never reproduce 24-bit/96K stereo, let alone 24-bit/192k multi-channel (there just is not enough room on the CD disc for the full content ~= 10 pounds of content in a 2 pound bag = 5 gigabytes can't fit on a 1/2 gigabyte optical disc). Music publishers are easily able to do either or both, CD and DVD-A without any increases in costs of manufacture ... and they could do both on the same disc (sideA = 24-bit DVD-A, sideB = 16-bit CD) with very little increase in production costs.

15th December 2006, 08:54 PM	#32
rdf diyAudio Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: big smoke	One thing to watch about DVD-A. As I understand it most releases come with surround tracks. I'm trying to find documented confirmation but I'm 99.99999% or more certain that surround formats uses a form of DSP based on the Head Related Transfer Function on the rear channels to create a more convincing impression of space. Similar to Q-Sound. When played back on any 2-channel player (I own in any case), those DSP'ed surround tracks are flat mixed back into the front channels. On movie surround tracks that's certainly the case, of the DVD-A discs I own my ear leads me to suspect the same. End result, DVD-A playback over two channel systems potentially includes DSP-altered surround channels in the mix. That said, the best digital recordings I have are DVD-A. Also one of the worst (the Naxos Groff disc, shutter.) I would welcome a conversion to DVD-A.

15th December 2006, 10:03 PM	#33
FastEddy diyAudio Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: North Californie	rdf: " ... about DVD-A ... I'm trying to find documented confirmation but I'm 99.99999% or more certain that surround formats uses a form of DSP based on the Head Related Transfer Function on the rear channels to create a more convincing impression of space. Similar to Q-Sound. ..." Press Release: " ... Classic 24/192 DVD-A discs will be Universal DVD discs in the sense that they will be designed to play on both DVD Audio and DVD Video players. This will involve filling the audio title set with 24/192 data and the video title set with 24/96 data. These discs will therefore also play on universal players that support SACD and DVD Video. The transfers will be done using a specially designed battery powered 24/192 Analog to Digital converter designed by Kevin Halverson of Muse Electronics from original master tapes mastered ..." From: http://www.classicrecords.com/newsle...cfm?Article=94 Some record publishers, producers and reproducers actually try to duplicate the original studio masters in full DVD-A 24-bit/192k multichannel optical discs, seeking quality above all else ... without resorting to the mish mash of using the the various "quality" 16-bit compression and expansion (24 bit master to 16-bit CD digital back to "24-bit" DVD type disc). These mathamatical manipulations may seem like a good idea to cost cutting greedheads and middle management marketing types in the front offices of the likes of Sony, but they really will not cut it when the sophisticated customer discovers this ruse. Using big words to describe this outright fraud will not wash. FYI to All: Sony and other major mass market publishers have been deliberately producing CD's with overly compressed content and distortion ... in order to make their (more expensive) SACD sound and DVD video tracks sound better. The most recent example is Bob Dylan's "Modern Times", available in two versions ( http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Times-B...dp/B000GFLAI0/ and http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Times-D.../dp/B000GRTQSE ). The mass market CD is overtly distorted and obviously sounds compressed, yet the same tracks on the video DVD are much better, the difference being chiefly that the CD (44k, overly compressed) content and DVD (48k content) WITH significant improvements and remixing by the Sony production engineers. Sony is trying to cut their share out of the middle of the pie, leaving Dylan with nothing left to do but to compalin to the clueless media. Fortunately Dylan owns the rights to his studio masters and soon there should be a 24-bit (hopefully DVD-A) release of this very interesting album ...

16th December 2006, 04:11 AM	#34
Destroyer OS. diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2005	Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon 180 Gram version, new. This is the best sounding one. There are a couple of websites that still have it in stock, many are sold out. You think the Japanese one was nice? Grab this if you can, while you can! Talk about imaging delight... You can hear weird sounds that do circles in front of you and dance around then run away. There are people that run from right to left, while also going toward you and away from you. It is just a blast to listen too.

18th December 2006, 04:50 PM	#35
FastEddy diyAudio Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: North Californie	rdf: " ... One thing to watch about DVD-A. As I understand it most releases come with surround tracks. ..." check this out: " ... The transfers will be done using a specially designed battery powered 24/192 Analog to Digital converter ..." http://www.classicrecords.com/newsle...cfm?Article=88 ... and these guys don't do "surround sound" or dolby unless the masters are made for such ... relying on the customers' equipment to add the various EQ / "expansion" or "decompression ... or not. (I may have already submitted this link, but it should be repeated in any discussion about what some producers and reproducers do and others don't.)