SY said:
Yes, so according to the unwritten rules of this forum it must
be true then.
I don't think there is any serioous problem for recorded classical
music per se, but things are changing as they always were.
Someone (Universal?) bought up DG, Philips and Decca and not
surprisingly the catalogues of especially the latter two has
shrunk considerably. You can't have too much in house
competition. The number of record companies is growing, the
big ones are getting more and more competition from small
and new lables, not to speak of newer big ones like Naxos.
Many of the modern full-prices discs are sold by marketing
rather than artistic merits. The archives of old recordings is
by necessity growing over time and the modern artist have
the older ones to compete with. Why buy a badly sounding
full-price recording with a possibly good modern musician
when you can buy a good-sounding reissue of an outstanding
musician at a bargain price? Maybe the market for classical
music is decreasing, but I am not sure. I think the interest
for opera is higher than it has been for many decades, for
instance. Although Naxos recordings are of varying musical
quality and often with lesser known artists, their low price
and frequent presence also in typical pop music shops is
likely to attract new classical listeners. That won't show up
as a profit for the usual big companies or as expensive
contracts for the mega-stars, at least not for a start. Here in
Sweden I do see a change. While there has never been any
really good shop for classical music in my town, there is
basically none at all now. On the other hand, I think there
has never before been so many well-stocked classical
record shops in Stockholm as there is now, and that despite
all the internet shops.
Well, that was some thoughts, but let's stop there for
the moment.
All those classical recordings!
Since digital technologie they sound "better" and "perfect" so why go on recording new interpretations of the same stuff over and over? Serious, I have records of several interpratations of different beethoven symphonies at home, why should I stack another one if i really like them.
I want NEW MUSIC!! NEW RECORDINGS OF NEW MUSIC!! Never heard of, interesting, tempting to experience more, more varability, etc.
In pop or rock music it is the game of the day to bring something at least "a little" newer and different. Classical music instead stays frozen at the state 200years ago. That is weird. Imagine painting beeing stuck at the time of Rubens or Rembrand, literature at the time of shakespeare.
So the recording industry must wake up, start to research the very wide field of musical artistc production of today. This is good music AND IT WILL SELL if the recordings and interpretations are good and if the marketing is good and willing too.
Again: All those never really changing classical recordings of the same stuff again and again! I do not need them: No.
Klaus
ps: as some of you know, I am a composer, so this post is a milder version of what I really think...
Since digital technologie they sound "better" and "perfect" so why go on recording new interpretations of the same stuff over and over? Serious, I have records of several interpratations of different beethoven symphonies at home, why should I stack another one if i really like them.
I want NEW MUSIC!! NEW RECORDINGS OF NEW MUSIC!! Never heard of, interesting, tempting to experience more, more varability, etc.
In pop or rock music it is the game of the day to bring something at least "a little" newer and different. Classical music instead stays frozen at the state 200years ago. That is weird. Imagine painting beeing stuck at the time of Rubens or Rembrand, literature at the time of shakespeare.
So the recording industry must wake up, start to research the very wide field of musical artistc production of today. This is good music AND IT WILL SELL if the recordings and interpretations are good and if the marketing is good and willing too.
Again: All those never really changing classical recordings of the same stuff again and again! I do not need them: No.
Klaus
ps: as some of you know, I am a composer, so this post is a milder version of what I really think...
Placido is "helden tenor"
well, having the pleasure of a Metropolitan Opera subscription for almost 20 years I would also say that we don't need another "Domingo" as we have Roberto Alagna and Juan Diego Flores. Flores rocked the house with his rendition of Count Almaviva in "Barbiere" this past Saturday. Parenthetically, I despise NYC audiophiles who never attend a live concert of classical!
Some will still lament the passing of Lauritz Melchior -- but he's still available on the historical recordings.
I would very, very strongly urge listeners who don't have access to the Chevron-Texaco Opera broadcasts (U.S and Canada do for sure) to listen to WQXR -- www.wqxr.com on Saturday -- usually 1:30 pm Eastern Time. This has been a phenomenal year for the Metropolitan Opera.
With respect to Classical Recordings generally, it's my personal experience that there is hugely more variety than 10 or 30 years ago. Smaller labels are getting picked up by Tower Records in NY, EBay has made a lot of stuff available, and it's very easy to order virtually anything from any period on the web.
Cobra2 said:
well, having the pleasure of a Metropolitan Opera subscription for almost 20 years I would also say that we don't need another "Domingo" as we have Roberto Alagna and Juan Diego Flores. Flores rocked the house with his rendition of Count Almaviva in "Barbiere" this past Saturday. Parenthetically, I despise NYC audiophiles who never attend a live concert of classical!
Some will still lament the passing of Lauritz Melchior -- but he's still available on the historical recordings.
I would very, very strongly urge listeners who don't have access to the Chevron-Texaco Opera broadcasts (U.S and Canada do for sure) to listen to WQXR -- www.wqxr.com on Saturday -- usually 1:30 pm Eastern Time. This has been a phenomenal year for the Metropolitan Opera.
With respect to Classical Recordings generally, it's my personal experience that there is hugely more variety than 10 or 30 years ago. Smaller labels are getting picked up by Tower Records in NY, EBay has made a lot of stuff available, and it's very easy to order virtually anything from any period on the web.
I regularly browse the new releases.The last 2 years I have bought some enterprising discs from Naxos and CPO,some harpsichordissues on tiny labels and lots of secondhand material.
The last Universal has been a Decca(Rousset) which is so poorly recorded that I assume the producer hates me.
EMI-reissues pressed locally (Uden) compare so badly with my older Swindon and Sonopress cds that I totally gave up.
No wonder my lp collection grows and grows!
Martijn
The last Universal has been a Decca(Rousset) which is so poorly recorded that I assume the producer hates me.
EMI-reissues pressed locally (Uden) compare so badly with my older Swindon and Sonopress cds that I totally gave up.
No wonder my lp collection grows and grows!
Martijn
martijn said:
Is there a Dutch equivalent of the UK publication "Gramophone" -- I pick up a copy every month at Borders and scrutinize the reviews -- one very important tip -- they often cite the best prior recordings and these can be had on EBay (or perhaps you have CD and LP trading shops in Holland!) An investment in Gramophone spares me the disappointment of choosing by the cover.
Too bad that Hifi News and Record Review has become HiFiNews and Nothing Review.
Dead no badly marketed yes
I've enjoyed "classical " music for over twenty years. But it's the growing pains of finding the stuff you like that makes it so hard. It's still to elitest. I have a large collection that I consider to be of very high quality. But I have almost completely given up on the big names in the industry to produce a good recording.
Mark
Bach still rules
I've enjoyed "classical " music for over twenty years. But it's the growing pains of finding the stuff you like that makes it so hard. It's still to elitest. I have a large collection that I consider to be of very high quality. But I have almost completely given up on the big names in the industry to produce a good recording.
Mark
Bach still rules
SY said:
Not surprising if true. And if informal observation of concert audiences has any validity then the problem would seem partly demographic. Youth seems to have scanty representation in the concert hall audiences that I see, though I don't get out a lot anymore.
This may be an historic hiatus. The "fashion" of full-intelligence-in-music may return in a not too distant future, but then it may happen never again. That may have been it, and some of us were lucky enough to have lived through the end of it. But I have to believe that it still lives. And my ears tell me it is still alive. I can easily believe that works by composers like Adams and Philip Glass will enter the standard repertoire of classical orchestras and remain there for as long as we have continuity of civilization. Though I grant that there may be few classical orchestras in the near/mid future. Also the scale of classical works may be diminished for an indeterminate duration. But I think the tradition will continue in one form or another.
eStatic
Re: Dead no badly marketed yes
I would be very interested in what you mean by "It's still to elitest." And especially the particulars of the problems musical elitism has introduced into your experience of music. I am very curious about this perception and don't quite know what to make of it.
I mean, there are certainly a number of elitist posterior orifices in classical music, but they're irrelevant to the experience of the music as far as I can tell. Is your experience different? Or am I missing the point here.
I'm just not clear on this and would appreciate any explanation you'd be willing to provide.
eStatic
mwmkravchenko said:
I would be very interested in what you mean by "It's still to elitest." And especially the particulars of the problems musical elitism has introduced into your experience of music. I am very curious about this perception and don't quite know what to make of it.
I mean, there are certainly a number of elitist posterior orifices in classical music, but they're irrelevant to the experience of the music as far as I can tell. Is your experience different? Or am I missing the point here.
I'm just not clear on this and would appreciate any explanation you'd be willing to provide.
eStatic
if you consider
the amount of space classical recordings get in stores like Sam Goody or (a few) other stores, one has to think that the demand is very low in this area (South King county and pierce county in Washington state.
I used to shop in Fnac (Antwerpen) and the directory they had was enormous and it was always pleasant that the store people at least knew of recording a or b of a certain artist and could find it for me.
I think classical recordings should not be regarded as finished and the remark of Composer Klaus from Austria makes me wonder if he ever heard music like the Violin concerto of Beethoven by Perlman and/or by Oghi and if he can tell me why some people like the first and others the second one... In jazz you also have 'reference recordings, things that are such a good representation of what artist and composer combined mean or the interpretation of a certain artist for a certain piece, that you want to hold on to that forever. Think of La Callas as Mimi, unforgettable, you feel the woman is dying while she proclaims her love...
Think of Te Kanawa singing " i like to be in America" or Carerras singing Maria in a remake of the soundtrack of West Side Story in the Eighties.... The orchestra was literally picked up from little bars and of the street in NY by Bernsteins add, because Leonard was trying to get the real NY music feeling in the recording!!!!!!!!!! Unforgettable and now truly a masterpiece.
I supose you think, Mr. Klaus that this was completely useless of the record company and Bernstein, after all, there was already a recording from the Motion Picture....... How completely foolish to think that way!!!!!!!!
Think of, almost 50 years ago, Harry Belafonte at Carnegie Hall when he asks the wealthy audience to sing a capella referring to them as "Now The Scholarship section" .. the interpretations of artists HAVE to be kept for ever and some of us, and I consider myself one of these happy few that CAN enjoy this, are all too happy about it!!!!!
And when Nicholas Lens ( a multi talented contemporary artist, Mr. Klaus) made " the Fire Requiem' (listen to FLamma FLamma, please listen to it) then I can agree and say you should not exclude contempary classical inspired music but let's quickly forget pop in this forum.
Jean-Pierre
Lohengrin in Antwerp.... to die for!
the amount of space classical recordings get in stores like Sam Goody or (a few) other stores, one has to think that the demand is very low in this area (South King county and pierce county in Washington state.
I used to shop in Fnac (Antwerpen) and the directory they had was enormous and it was always pleasant that the store people at least knew of recording a or b of a certain artist and could find it for me.
I think classical recordings should not be regarded as finished and the remark of Composer Klaus from Austria makes me wonder if he ever heard music like the Violin concerto of Beethoven by Perlman and/or by Oghi and if he can tell me why some people like the first and others the second one... In jazz you also have 'reference recordings, things that are such a good representation of what artist and composer combined mean or the interpretation of a certain artist for a certain piece, that you want to hold on to that forever. Think of La Callas as Mimi, unforgettable, you feel the woman is dying while she proclaims her love...
Think of Te Kanawa singing " i like to be in America" or Carerras singing Maria in a remake of the soundtrack of West Side Story in the Eighties.... The orchestra was literally picked up from little bars and of the street in NY by Bernsteins add, because Leonard was trying to get the real NY music feeling in the recording!!!!!!!!!! Unforgettable and now truly a masterpiece.
I supose you think, Mr. Klaus that this was completely useless of the record company and Bernstein, after all, there was already a recording from the Motion Picture....... How completely foolish to think that way!!!!!!!!
Think of, almost 50 years ago, Harry Belafonte at Carnegie Hall when he asks the wealthy audience to sing a capella referring to them as "Now The Scholarship section" .. the interpretations of artists HAVE to be kept for ever and some of us, and I consider myself one of these happy few that CAN enjoy this, are all too happy about it!!!!!
And when Nicholas Lens ( a multi talented contemporary artist, Mr. Klaus) made " the Fire Requiem' (listen to FLamma FLamma, please listen to it) then I can agree and say you should not exclude contempary classical inspired music but let's quickly forget pop in this forum.
Jean-Pierre
Lohengrin in Antwerp.... to die for!
Playing the flute and the bass guitar (unfortunately not so often anymore nowadays) I have played music from the medieval times up to today by myself and I can say that I liked all of it so far.
In the last few years pop music started to become more and more boring IMHO, i.e. it also suffered from some kind of intellectual standstill. The best songs in fact are the old ones that are released as cover versions nowadays. And I am talking of the songs per se and definitely NOT the interpretations. But people buy them for whatever reason I don't know ........
So I wonder why this doesn't work with classical recordings as well (althogh you can't call interpretations cover versions, of course). Me too I can listen to different interpretations of the same classical work and still like most of them (and I think I am not the only one).
I think there is not much interest for the record companies trying to sell good music if most of their revenue is achieved with bad one.
Regards
Charles
In the last few years pop music started to become more and more boring IMHO, i.e. it also suffered from some kind of intellectual standstill. The best songs in fact are the old ones that are released as cover versions nowadays. And I am talking of the songs per se and definitely NOT the interpretations. But people buy them for whatever reason I don't know ........
So I wonder why this doesn't work with classical recordings as well (althogh you can't call interpretations cover versions, of course). Me too I can listen to different interpretations of the same classical work and still like most of them (and I think I am not the only one).
I think there is not much interest for the record companies trying to sell good music if most of their revenue is achieved with bad one.
Regards
Charles
jackinnj
There is a dedicated classical music shop here(4 minutes walk)offering most of the interesting new releases including the possibility to listen(and drink coffee while reading Gramophone!)
So information and availability is no problem around here.
But that horrid Rousset recording was actually applauded in
Gramophone!
Martijn
jackinnj said:
There is a dedicated classical music shop here(4 minutes walk)offering most of the interesting new releases including the possibility to listen(and drink coffee while reading Gramophone!)
So information and availability is no problem around here.
But that horrid Rousset recording was actually applauded in
Gramophone!
Martijn
Defining a Miss used word
Elitest. I mean that the music is :
hard to get to physically not much of it in stores
expensive to a new comer. altough there are some good budget labels now.
People at the record shop don't usually know what it is or how to help you.
There is still a stigma in the general public that "classical" music is snoby.
The truth of the matter is that most everyone when they hear something that they enjoy or that moves them emotionally will say so. What ever kind of music that they are listening to. I regularly provide demos for friends and clients and I have only baroque and early classical in my collection. They all most allways leave with a smile and a " I never heard music like that before "
comments.
If the music of the past centuries was prsented as just another flavour it would be easier to access. But it requires a pioneering spirit in that a bit of interest in history is needed. A bit of understanding of instrumentation helps as well. ( I personally played french horn for quite a while much less now as I don't have one any longer )
Popular music is marketed as fun and moving. It involves you and is relevant to the times ( what ever the record compaies think is relevant and the public gets spoon fed it untill they think so too ) Popular music is also short. Needs precious little patience to listen to. Try that with Bach's Passacaglia! The Goldberg Variations? It's music for more inquiring minds. But that's not saying that only "smart people" can listen to it. Like many other things in life some of the best traits need proper cultivation. A little here and there can spark a persons interest. To fan that spark into a flame of passion ( face it people can be passionate about music! ) is what is needed.
Mark
Elitest. I mean that the music is :
hard to get to physically not much of it in stores
expensive to a new comer. altough there are some good budget labels now.
People at the record shop don't usually know what it is or how to help you.
There is still a stigma in the general public that "classical" music is snoby.
The truth of the matter is that most everyone when they hear something that they enjoy or that moves them emotionally will say so. What ever kind of music that they are listening to. I regularly provide demos for friends and clients and I have only baroque and early classical in my collection. They all most allways leave with a smile and a " I never heard music like that before "
comments.
If the music of the past centuries was prsented as just another flavour it would be easier to access. But it requires a pioneering spirit in that a bit of interest in history is needed. A bit of understanding of instrumentation helps as well. ( I personally played french horn for quite a while much less now as I don't have one any longer )
Popular music is marketed as fun and moving. It involves you and is relevant to the times ( what ever the record compaies think is relevant and the public gets spoon fed it untill they think so too ) Popular music is also short. Needs precious little patience to listen to. Try that with Bach's Passacaglia! The Goldberg Variations? It's music for more inquiring minds. But that's not saying that only "smart people" can listen to it. Like many other things in life some of the best traits need proper cultivation. A little here and there can spark a persons interest. To fan that spark into a flame of passion ( face it people can be passionate about music! ) is what is needed.
Mark
It's not dead but it is being transmogrified. The recorded music industry both classical and pop as we "traditionally think of it" is founded on two technologies: the Edison cylinder and the DeForest's triode, i.e., recording and broadcast. These are about 100 years old. Until the internet everything that has happened has been an advance on those two but not fundamental. The internet has the potential for a fundamental change.
However, note that both classical and pop music existed before the above innovations, but the business of music was drasticly altered by them. (As an aside, the Gutenberg printing press cause a change in the "business" of music of equal magnitude a few centuries earlier.)
Recorded music will still be with us but the "business" aspects may change in a big way. The interesting point is that even the priciple perpetrators (including Gates and Jobs) don't really know what is going to happen. My prediction is that in 2024 we will look back and realize that no one came close to predicting what was going to happen.
However, note that both classical and pop music existed before the above innovations, but the business of music was drasticly altered by them. (As an aside, the Gutenberg printing press cause a change in the "business" of music of equal magnitude a few centuries earlier.)
Recorded music will still be with us but the "business" aspects may change in a big way. The interesting point is that even the priciple perpetrators (including Gates and Jobs) don't really know what is going to happen. My prediction is that in 2024 we will look back and realize that no one came close to predicting what was going to happen.
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