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Old 21st November 2012, 07:08 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counter culture View Post
Right.

But it's a 'weakest link in the chain' scenario. No amount of beefing up the other links helps.
You are right.

I also noticed that I read JCX post wrong. You wrote very loud volume, which is probably correct, but once you notice the details at loud volume, you will also begin to listen for them at low volume, and they are there if your domestic noise level is low enough (hate my fridge!).

Nevertheless we can probably all agree that if recording studios where not using compression, they would be better at their jobs because they would actually do something. And there may be a possibility that the following increased level of detail would justify the increase in resolution.

Last edited by KaffiMann; 21st November 2012 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 21st November 2012, 08:56 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by jcx View Post
most Studios already work at 24/96 - so resampling with dither are standard plugins in their mastering software - pretty universal, has to be used to produce 16/144 releases - little "new" education required

to my knowledge the few published peer reviewed articles claiming positive results in controlled listening for higher resolution in either bit depth or samplerate than 16/44 haven't been replicated, have methodological questions, aren't yet accepted as proven psychoacoustics

but I'd say the situation is unsettled and therefore boosting sample rate is a better use of any extra bits - little of the current sophistication in the dither algorithms is required at much higher sample rate - the noise doesn't have to be so carefully apportioned in our normal hearing range - it can all be above 20 kHz with 96 k


If you can reliably tell 24 vs 16 bit depth, when a good dither has been properly applied to the 16 bit data, with music at reasonable volume then there are psychoacoustic researchers wanting to test you in their labs
Hi.

You win.

I will have a very hard time telling a properly dithered 16 bit 44k1 file from a 24 bit 96k one. There are differences, but it is very hard to tell them apart in a blind test. The only way you can tell them apart is if you are listening to the same track and constantly changing between 16 bit dither and 24 bit throughout the tune.

That being said, the dithered one is better at low volume levels in the track, while the non-dithered 16 bit is better at higher volume levels in the track. The 24 bit version seems to catch the best of both the 16 bit dither low volume detail level, and the regular 16 bit high volume detail level.

It is very late here now, maybe I will test with higher sample rate tomorrow.

Again: It is nearly impossible to tell any of the three apart unless you keep switching constantly. But I'd go for the 24 bit if there was a choice, good at all levels. The result might be different if I actually had a stereo here right now, still waiting for that !#=%!"=(& paintjob......
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Old 21st November 2012, 09:28 PM   #43
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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24 bit will sell better because the number is bigger. Does not matter how good 16 bit with dither is.
I don't care much about the sample rate, tho 48Khz might be nice because it's a simple resample from 96KHz, the studio standard.

Just give me the recordings without all the dynamic compression. They can do it on SACD and DVD-A. Why not better masters for download?
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Old 21st November 2012, 09:32 PM   #44
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Just give me the recordings without all the dynamic compression. They can do it on SACD and DVD-A. Why not better masters for download?
The musicians want compression, compressed source gets better reviews (even in the so-called "high end" journals) and more radio play. We're not even big enough to be a niche. Too bad, uncompressed 16/44 is amazingly good- in ABX, I couldn't tell it from 24/96 when the levels were set properly.
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Old 21st November 2012, 09:37 PM   #45
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Compression does sell records, it always has. But there is at least some awareness in the musical community of the loudness wars. Vise Bob Dylan's rant of a years back.

Let the masses have their 12dB dynamic range. Just offer us more, we'll pay for it. If it starts to sell, then more people will offer it. Audiophile pressings and special CDs have sold for years, to a small market. "Better" downloads would be super easy and a money maker, it seems.
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Old 21st November 2012, 09:42 PM   #46
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I'd like the compression to do the vanishing act, earlier I listened to Pendulums In-Silico album and it quite literally hurt my hearing for the day, 10+ hrs and my hearing is still not right, chuffing headache still aint gone either.
No wonder kids say 'wot' and look blank when they pull their ipood plugs from their ears.
Am easy on the sample rate part
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Old 22nd November 2012, 05:27 AM   #47
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The petition has loads more signatures now (552!) thanks to this link! Its clear that lot of people are fed up with compressed music.

Petition for Better Sound | Stereophile.com
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Old 22nd November 2012, 07:03 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
The musicians want compression, compressed source gets better reviews (even in the so-called "high end" journals) and more radio play. We're not even big enough to be a niche. Too bad, uncompressed 16/44 is amazingly good- in ABX, I couldn't tell it from 24/96 when the levels were set properly.
You would have to listen for harmonics on hard notes at the beginning of the sound on dithered 16 bit. At the end of the sound/transition to low level reverb on non dithered 16 bit. Nearly impossible to hear, but it is possible. In both cases there is some small amount of information missing.

Does anyone know any other wav comparison tools than FourierRocks? It only supports 16 bit.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 09:35 AM   #49
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Try DiffMaker from Liberty Instruments.

I do not hear the effect you describe- how did you convert your files to 16/44?
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Old 22nd November 2012, 12:10 PM   #50
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Try DiffMaker from Liberty Instruments.

I do not hear the effect you describe- how did you convert your files to 16/44?
Thank you for this, will investigate when I get home. A pity it does not support 32 bit, was thinking of trying that as well.

There was no conversion, I rendered. I thought it would be difficult/impossible to provoke any difference with existing music in my library, so I dusted off a remix I made some years ago, the interesting bit is that this was an experiment with what I think of as daisy chained distortion limiting with automation. Every sound will distort a little bit differently and therefore produce harmonics, the notes also vary in velocity and this will also make slightly different distortion, even at low volume passages.

Do not know if it makes sense, more along the lines of: Keep your friends (dynamics) close, but keep your enemies (distortion) closer.

Will post results no matter what I find out. Unsure about the depth of the investigation attempts though. I have 2 small kids and a wonderful wife that do not get enough attention.
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