I'll hold him down for ya!
Maybe we could round them all up and send them to Australia...?
Seriously though, thanks for sharing your experiences, I really won't be so quick to blame my system for faults now!
How about a list of common and known bad discs? I could easily list a few that seem impossible to sound nice... Might be interesting, or depressing and take forever
-Simon
Hi Simon,
I have since had a yarn with the mixdown engineer and learned a few home truths about the mixdown sessions.
Budget and time were both limited - JH tells me that he would have liked to spend two weeks on the release instead of only the one week.
Also one of the guys in the band was insistent on making the recording sound 'good' on an example Sony shelf system.
I think the final overall eq was tweaked to the Sony, and not so much to the reference system.
The reference system is JBL LSR32 (12", 5", 1") driven by a Macrotech 2402 and with or without matching LSR12P powered subs.
JBL and Crown seem to be proud of these, and certainly is powerful.
I have heard better amplifiers than the Amcron, and although I have not heard the JBL's, I have heard monitors that I expect to be better.
Either way he is using a clean and powerful system, and the sound should be pretty good.
I'll meet up with him in two weeks over a coldie and find out some more.
Eric.
I have since had a yarn with the mixdown engineer and learned a few home truths about the mixdown sessions.
Budget and time were both limited - JH tells me that he would have liked to spend two weeks on the release instead of only the one week.
Also one of the guys in the band was insistent on making the recording sound 'good' on an example Sony shelf system.
I think the final overall eq was tweaked to the Sony, and not so much to the reference system.
The reference system is JBL LSR32 (12", 5", 1") driven by a Macrotech 2402 and with or without matching LSR12P powered subs.
JBL and Crown seem to be proud of these, and certainly is powerful.
I have heard better amplifiers than the Amcron, and although I have not heard the JBL's, I have heard monitors that I expect to be better.
Either way he is using a clean and powerful system, and the sound should be pretty good.
I'll meet up with him in two weeks over a coldie and find out some more.
Eric.
Hello,
Tweaked for a Sony mini system/ghetto blaster says it all really!! What a shame, and a shame lots of popular music receives similar treatment. Still, it sounds like you're happy with the recording in some ways.
Oh dear, I played a pop compilation from 1996 yesterday (Now 35) so see what it sounded like - I could barely believe how undynamic it sounded - really small loudness variation between ANY parts of ANY tracks! Plus it was fairly harsh...
Another good example of poor production/'mastering' ruining good music: a friend once brought round a 70s funk CD round, telling me it sounded brilliant... brilliant on his mini system. He complained bitterly about the harsh sound and lack of bass (plus there were no real dynamics). To be fair my system was particularly unkind to bad recordings at the time, but still, it was baaad.
It seems to me like most pop (and much other) music is made to work with cheap systems that totally colour the sound on purpose. There is certainly some harmony/synergy between crap masterings and crap playback systems. Harsh is countered by lack of treble, lack of bass is countered by bass-boost circuits, and lack of dynamics lets it sound as loud as 30 Sony watts can make!!
</whinge>
Sorry about going off-track.
-Simon
Tweaked for a Sony mini system/ghetto blaster says it all really!! What a shame, and a shame lots of popular music receives similar treatment. Still, it sounds like you're happy with the recording in some ways.
Oh dear, I played a pop compilation from 1996 yesterday (Now 35) so see what it sounded like - I could barely believe how undynamic it sounded - really small loudness variation between ANY parts of ANY tracks! Plus it was fairly harsh...
Another good example of poor production/'mastering' ruining good music: a friend once brought round a 70s funk CD round, telling me it sounded brilliant... brilliant on his mini system. He complained bitterly about the harsh sound and lack of bass (plus there were no real dynamics). To be fair my system was particularly unkind to bad recordings at the time, but still, it was baaad.
It seems to me like most pop (and much other) music is made to work with cheap systems that totally colour the sound on purpose. There is certainly some harmony/synergy between crap masterings and crap playback systems. Harsh is countered by lack of treble, lack of bass is countered by bass-boost circuits, and lack of dynamics lets it sound as loud as 30 Sony watts can make!!
</whinge>
Sorry about going off-track.
-Simon
There are indeed many things that can spoil the mastering process:
Inpropriate SPL, most often too high than too low. A good example is my vinyl copy of "Bat out of Hell" by Meatloaf: No decent bass and highs, absolutely flat dynamics.
Musicians with bad taste or no idea of good sound, sitting behind the mastering engineer and continuously uttering their opinions. That's one thing I experienced by myself when a band, I was a member of, produced a demo-recording. I was the only band-member who was interested in audio technology and listening to audiophile recordings regularly. Unfortunately I wasn't present during the mixdown process. When I heard the outcome it almost made me throw up.
While any recording should sound average on average equipment, the latter should NEVER be taken as a REFERENCE in any way.
Furthermore a very disturbing thing are clipped CDs that are intended for the audiphile community like "Knockout 2000" by Charly Antolini.
Regards
Charles
Inpropriate SPL, most often too high than too low. A good example is my vinyl copy of "Bat out of Hell" by Meatloaf: No decent bass and highs, absolutely flat dynamics.
Musicians with bad taste or no idea of good sound, sitting behind the mastering engineer and continuously uttering their opinions. That's one thing I experienced by myself when a band, I was a member of, produced a demo-recording. I was the only band-member who was interested in audio technology and listening to audiophile recordings regularly. Unfortunately I wasn't present during the mixdown process. When I heard the outcome it almost made me throw up.
While any recording should sound average on average equipment, the latter should NEVER be taken as a REFERENCE in any way.
Furthermore a very disturbing thing are clipped CDs that are intended for the audiphile community like "Knockout 2000" by Charly Antolini.
Regards
Charles
We Need To Fix The Muso.....
The Crowns are great for DJ and live PA, but I do not like them for critical listening.
The JBL's I fully expect to be lively but coloured if my past JBL experience correlates.
I am told that the monitor system is eq'd with some kind of realtime analyser/auto eq setup, but I have not heard one that I like the sound of.
I'll get to hear it in the near future.
I think he is doing that himself already actually, and wants to remaster it - we discussed the sonic problems and the sonic strengths and we agreed on all points, so that might happen in the future too.
When he (the muso) gets back from tour I will show him a really outstandingly good monitor system that I have access to, and maybe together we will fix it for the better.
It is the mixdown, and mostly the overall eq that sucks - I have heard it on quite a few systems now, and the same problems are apparent to the critical/educated ear - ie a couple of bass notes that drone/boom, and too much high mids/tops activity with a peaking response.
This would be the expected outcome of mixing down to the Sony shelf system I reckon.
Interestingly reducing the levels in the problem areas gives a DAW workstation waveform that is much 'furrier' in appearance - ie more instantaneous dynamic range.
In my experience if it is mastered to sound 'right' at reasonable SPL on a 'blameless' monitoring system, then it will sound good on any system, and if not it is the playback system that it is at fault.
That said, the better the mixdown, the less 'wrong' that it will sound on a bad system, and on a really good system can sound great, provided that the original captures are good, and this is very strongly dependant on the mics/preamps and the room acoustics.
Like live mixing, the resultant two channel send is also very dependant on subtle eq of each source channel so that the whole lot 'sits' together nicely.
Eric.
Yeah, I know.
The Crowns are great for DJ and live PA, but I do not like them for critical listening.
The JBL's I fully expect to be lively but coloured if my past JBL experience correlates.
I am told that the monitor system is eq'd with some kind of realtime analyser/auto eq setup, but I have not heard one that I like the sound of.
I'll get to hear it in the near future.
He is too big for that.......but I can still kick his butt.
I think he is doing that himself already actually, and wants to remaster it - we discussed the sonic problems and the sonic strengths and we agreed on all points, so that might happen in the future too.
When he (the muso) gets back from tour I will show him a really outstandingly good monitor system that I have access to, and maybe together we will fix it for the better.
Yeah, the source sounds are seriously the nicest captures that I have heard.
It is the mixdown, and mostly the overall eq that sucks - I have heard it on quite a few systems now, and the same problems are apparent to the critical/educated ear - ie a couple of bass notes that drone/boom, and too much high mids/tops activity with a peaking response.
This would be the expected outcome of mixing down to the Sony shelf system I reckon.
Interestingly reducing the levels in the problem areas gives a DAW workstation waveform that is much 'furrier' in appearance - ie more instantaneous dynamic range.
Yeah, if it is made for the 15-30 age bracket it will be eq'd to suit the average shelf system and car audio system (and club PA system).
In my experience if it is mastered to sound 'right' at reasonable SPL on a 'blameless' monitoring system, then it will sound good on any system, and if not it is the playback system that it is at fault.
That said, the better the mixdown, the less 'wrong' that it will sound on a bad system, and on a really good system can sound great, provided that the original captures are good, and this is very strongly dependant on the mics/preamps and the room acoustics.
Like live mixing, the resultant two channel send is also very dependant on subtle eq of each source channel so that the whole lot 'sits' together nicely.
No worries, that happens on this forum all the time.
Eric.
Well, this is THE unfortunate Truth behind the DIY-Audio movement: the musical demands of this crowd are so primitives that in many case it turns off even if a DIYer accidentally was able to do something more or less deserving attention. I think the posts of the different DIYers in this thread are quite indicative illustration of the unfortunate fact of the most of the DIYer’s musical primitivism.
The Cat
The Cat
Romy said:
Eh? Why didn't you save your time and not bother posting at all, or spend longer, and communicate a meaningful message?
All I can extrapolate/assume from your words is that you may be a musical snob: the worst kind of music 'lover'. I have no clue as to who or what you are referring to in your post; the majority on this forum seem to enjoy a wide variety of music.
Please grow up ten years and contribute usefully, or at least use proper English.
Thankyou,
Simon
Once upon a time, they also called Mozart a heretic
I don't think DIYers are average.
My faves are also my test discs which I use in this order:
Pink Floyd - DSOTM (bells, so the salespeople know I'm serious)
Dave Brubeck - Time Out (so they think I like smooth)
Zubin Mehta - Mozart Flute Concertos (and classical for dynamics)
Dave Grusin - Fabulous Baker Boys (the piano is just so rich)Strunz and Farah - Wild Muse (realism)
Aqua - Aquarium (For thump, thump, thump, but there is this car)
Led Zep - Box Set CD1 (now we see if the system can rock, too)
Buena Vista Social Club - BVSC (demands clarity)
Then in no particular order, I might play these:
Ella Fitzgerald - Essential Ella (of course)
Martina Griffiths - Powerful Baby (lyrics!)
Sting - Ten Summoners Tales
Men at Work - Business as Usual (music from my youth)
Robert Miles - Dreamland (thunderclaps)
Run Lola Run Soundtrack
Enigma - MCMXCaD (perfect for after dessert)
If a system can do the first 8 CDs well, then I'd be interested in really listening to it. I've heard many systems fail the moment I switch styles. In particular, I love the look on their faces when I put in the Aqua. There is a car starting and revving on Barbie Girl that on a good system will actually drive away from you.
ensen
I don't think DIYers are average.
My faves are also my test discs which I use in this order:
Pink Floyd - DSOTM (bells, so the salespeople know I'm serious)
Dave Brubeck - Time Out (so they think I like smooth)
Zubin Mehta - Mozart Flute Concertos (and classical for dynamics)
Dave Grusin - Fabulous Baker Boys (the piano is just so rich)Strunz and Farah - Wild Muse (realism)
Aqua - Aquarium (For thump, thump, thump, but there is this car)
Led Zep - Box Set CD1 (now we see if the system can rock, too)
Buena Vista Social Club - BVSC (demands clarity)
Then in no particular order, I might play these:
Ella Fitzgerald - Essential Ella (of course)
Martina Griffiths - Powerful Baby (lyrics!)
Sting - Ten Summoners Tales
Men at Work - Business as Usual (music from my youth)
Robert Miles - Dreamland (thunderclaps)
Run Lola Run Soundtrack
Enigma - MCMXCaD (perfect for after dessert)
If a system can do the first 8 CDs well, then I'd be interested in really listening to it. I've heard many systems fail the moment I switch styles. In particular, I love the look on their faces when I put in the Aqua. There is a car starting and revving on Barbie Girl that on a good system will actually drive away from you.
ensen
Barbies Don't Ride Harleys....
I'll bet this The Barflys beats the Barbie Girl thing - impresses hi-fi salesman too.
Eric.
I have a recording of bootsteps into a garage, a kickstand going up, a Harley starting and idling before roaring out the garage and up the street, and a dog barking outside.
I'll bet this The Barflys beats the Barbie Girl thing - impresses hi-fi salesman too.
Eric.
Music: What and why.
For the most part I listen to "classical" music, though Frank Zappa, and Laurie Anderson can be found among my CDs.
First preference is Bach and before. Then Beethoven--especially late Beethoven when he had moved beyond Romanticism and into a direction that would not be explored until the 20th Century--hey check out that Gross Fugue!. Romanticism in general doesn't do much for me yet some of Brhams' small-scale vocal works will stand my hair on end with chills of ecstasy as strong as those produced by some performances of Die Kunst Der Fugue. Next in line is 20th Century music with a strong preference for tonal and modal composers e.g. Prokoffiev, Hindemith and R.V. Williams. I find value in A. Webern, but, geezaweez, to listen to one of his works one has to be well rested and ready to be torn to pieces and left to reassemble one's self. Then Classical and last, Romantic.
I find that this kind of music takes me to extremely important places that I cannot access by any other means; places within the soul--yet not within my personal soul*; places that are so expansive, so deep and so profoundly moving that it would seem necessary they lie somewhere within the collective soul of humanity itself.
*Please do not take the use of the word 'soul' as acceptance or validation of the concept of god.
eStatic
For the most part I listen to "classical" music, though Frank Zappa, and Laurie Anderson can be found among my CDs.
First preference is Bach and before. Then Beethoven--especially late Beethoven when he had moved beyond Romanticism and into a direction that would not be explored until the 20th Century--hey check out that Gross Fugue!. Romanticism in general doesn't do much for me yet some of Brhams' small-scale vocal works will stand my hair on end with chills of ecstasy as strong as those produced by some performances of Die Kunst Der Fugue. Next in line is 20th Century music with a strong preference for tonal and modal composers e.g. Prokoffiev, Hindemith and R.V. Williams. I find value in A. Webern, but, geezaweez, to listen to one of his works one has to be well rested and ready to be torn to pieces and left to reassemble one's self. Then Classical and last, Romantic.
I find that this kind of music takes me to extremely important places that I cannot access by any other means; places within the soul--yet not within my personal soul*; places that are so expansive, so deep and so profoundly moving that it would seem necessary they lie somewhere within the collective soul of humanity itself.
*Please do not take the use of the word 'soul' as acceptance or validation of the concept of god.
eStatic
Hm, let's see.
I've been waking up with Van Halen - Best Of Volume 1 the last month and I still absolutely love it.
More music I listen too:
AC/DC
Joe Satriani
Yngwie Malmsteen
Alice Cooper
Heavy metal stuff, The Offspring, Bob Marley, ...
I like blues too, but really haven't got any blues music.
I've been waking up with Van Halen - Best Of Volume 1 the last month and I still absolutely love it.
More music I listen too:
AC/DC
Joe Satriani
Yngwie Malmsteen
Alice Cooper
Heavy metal stuff, The Offspring, Bob Marley, ...
I like blues too, but really haven't got any blues music.
Not that I'm a fan as such, but I went to see an AC/DC tribute band a little while ago. They were Called LiveWire... They were pretty dam good, and the sound they had in that pub was incredible - probably the best live rock sound I've heard - I was punched in the guts with each bass and drum note, and never harsh - awesome! (shame about the silly goth crowd, lol)
Hi all,Some food for thought here! Can't wait to borrow my daughters copy of Barbie Girl to hear the car thing!
Out of interest has anyone come across the phenomenon of falling out of love with some recordings as your hifi improves, or indeed of revisiting stuff you had previously condemned as your improved hifi reveals extra detail and interest?
Yep!! This happens all the time to me. Some that I used to really enjoy I listened to too much, partly because they sounded good, and now they don't sound so special, plus I've over-listened to them!
E.g.
REM - Murmur (for some reason this used to be the absolute best thing on my hi-fi at one stage, now I can hear its faults quite well, and I'm a bit bored :-( )
Presidents of the USA - II (used to be exciting, now it sounds a bit less so)
Some I used to find bland recordings, but it turns out they just needed more detail etc. to bring them to life.
Examples:
Emergency on Planet Earth - Jamiroqui
Most classical discs I own! (for classical, a good (or just warm) tonal balance is needed, plus as much detail as pos. - recently my system has gained the ability to suggest the acoustic space, and therefore scale of the venue, I believe this is one true mark of hi-end audio)
REM - many (I love them whatever the sound limitations tho..)(ps. who else thinks Document is the crappest recorded of them all?)
There are many more too...
humm easy....
to answer that one...
tchaikowsky
Korsakoff
Strauss (J)
Beethoven (Violin concerto)
Mascagni
Verdi
- for singers Callas ( nec plus ultra)
Kanawa (yes the kiwis have some good stuff)
Nicolai Gedda
and beside classical stuff
"for those who chant Luis Gasca" with the young guys like jim henderson
and ofcourse about everything David Bowie has ever written and or performed! That includes : the buddah of Suburbia, When the wind blows etc..etc..
Jean-Pierre
Belgian in the USA
to answer that one...
tchaikowsky
Korsakoff
Strauss (J)
Beethoven (Violin concerto)
Mascagni
Verdi
- for singers Callas ( nec plus ultra)
Kanawa (yes the kiwis have some good stuff)
Nicolai Gedda
and beside classical stuff
"for those who chant Luis Gasca" with the young guys like jim henderson
and ofcourse about everything David Bowie has ever written and or performed! That includes : the buddah of Suburbia, When the wind blows etc..etc..
Jean-Pierre
Belgian in the USA
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