AndrewT said:
I built them myself, so I know for sure
The crossover is an interesting series / parallel hybrid, created by Jon March at HTGuide. Here's a link to the thread:
http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=13154
They certainly can't be bi-wired or bi-amped, but that doesn't bother me at all. Presently the single worst influence on my sound is room placement. Due to domestic harmony considerations, the speakers will not be moved out of their unhappy home. Perhaps when we move out of an apartment and into something larger and nicer, then I will have the potential to worry about this kind of thing.
Until then, however, this is just an interesting conversation.
Shaun said:
And I would rather buy 2 amps, at a total cost less than half the 'better amp', that do a better job. So, I bought 2 amps for a total of $500, and they drive the speakers cleaner than any of the $1500-6000 single amps I've tried them with.
Of course, I could just be liking the euphonics - but then, they are my speakers and that sort of thing is very difficult to judge empirically.
Well, all that matters in the end is that you are satisfied. This is one of those topics that don't have a right answer (or there are many right answers).
What is interesting is that people do find satisfaction, whatever path they choose (although the audiophile in them won't let good enough alone ).
I am still not convinced about the the arguments for biwiring. What has emerged in this discussion is something I have believed for a long time: that many tweaks that have grown to become "universal truths" are really quick-fixes for deficiencies somewhere in the system. A good example is Power Conditioners. I believe they work; the level of effectiveness will change from system to system. But they should not be necessary if the individual audio equipment has sufficiently good mains filtering.
I have never had the need to biwire or bi-amp, and I hope this situation never changes. But I'll try and keep an open mind, nonetheless.
What is interesting is that people do find satisfaction, whatever path they choose (although the audiophile in them won't let good enough alone
). I am still not convinced about the the arguments for biwiring. What has emerged in this discussion is something I have believed for a long time: that many tweaks that have grown to become "universal truths" are really quick-fixes for deficiencies somewhere in the system. A good example is Power Conditioners. I believe they work; the level of effectiveness will change from system to system. But they should not be necessary if the individual audio equipment has sufficiently good mains filtering.
I have never had the need to biwire or bi-amp, and I hope this situation never changes. But I'll try and keep an open mind, nonetheless.
Wow! The fun that I miss sometimes.
We can guess that the original post meant classic bi-amping. One amp, 2 sets of wires (per speaker).
I dunno, tried that back in the 80's. I knew I was supposed to hear a difference, but never did. Maybe time to try again?
As for bi-amp/bi-wire. yeah, that works good.
Almost fell off my chair when I read an earlier post that say it makes no difference. WOT??? I never tried it using 2 identical amps, but what would would be the point?
The approach mentioned higher of using amps suited to the particular driver and frequency range is what I do. Yes - with passive crossovers. The difference is not subtle. Done right, it sounds great. That's how I normally run my system.
And I have used active crossovers plenty. Nothing wrong with that. But a good passive crossover can work very well. With each section of the speaker run by a different amp it can sound great.
Of course those who claim that all amps sound alike will never believe any of it.
We can guess that the original post meant classic bi-amping. One amp, 2 sets of wires (per speaker).
I dunno, tried that back in the 80's. I knew I was supposed to hear a difference, but never did. Maybe time to try again?
As for bi-amp/bi-wire. yeah, that works good.
Almost fell off my chair when I read an earlier post that say it makes no difference. WOT??? I never tried it using 2 identical amps, but what would would be the point?
The approach mentioned higher of using amps suited to the particular driver and frequency range is what I do. Yes - with passive crossovers. The difference is not subtle. Done right, it sounds great. That's how I normally run my system.
And I have used active crossovers plenty. Nothing wrong with that. But a good passive crossover can work very well. With each section of the speaker run by a different amp it can sound great.
Of course those who claim that all amps sound alike will never believe any of it.
Shaun said:Well, all that matters in the end is that you are satisfied. This is one of those topics that don't have a right answer (or there are many right answers).
I agree with you 100% on both of these points.
Shaun said:
Oh, Shaun, then you've missed out on a lot of money spending and heart-ache. I pity you
!panomaniac said:
Michael,
If you call this bi-amping, then what do you call bi-wiring? I use the same names as Andrew T (in this post from this thread - where bi-wire means "two wires" and bi-amp means "two amps". And of course, assuming you have a 2-way speaker - you would substitute "tri-" if you had a 3-way speaker.
P.S. Let's not get into the amps sound thing - everyone knows that all good amps don't sound at all, they are just straight wire with gain
!
Sorry. Too many Bi's! I meant Bi-Wire of course. I'm with Andrew T on the terminalogy - 100%.
I think the voodoo part is pretty obvious.
Seriously here. The signal will be split anyway regarless if you use single or bi-wire. The idea behind bi-wire must be that the earlier the split the better. (For the sake of argument, let's ignore that that makes no sense at all.) Then how much earlier is enough? 1 meter? 2 meter? 20 meter?
Now let's talk physics here, and this is not my area of expertise. The electrons do not actually travel the whole distance of the wire. So whatever reflections or interaction is not prevented by a longer cable, or earlier splitting of the signal.
Bi-wiring makes no sense at all, unless you are a speaker cable manufacturer.
Seriously here. The signal will be split anyway regarless if you use single or bi-wire. The idea behind bi-wire must be that the earlier the split the better. (For the sake of argument, let's ignore that that makes no sense at all.) Then how much earlier is enough? 1 meter? 2 meter? 20 meter?
Now let's talk physics here, and this is not my area of expertise. The electrons do not actually travel the whole distance of the wire. So whatever reflections or interaction is not prevented by a longer cable, or earlier splitting of the signal.
Bi-wiring makes no sense at all, unless you are a speaker cable manufacturer.
Do you dispute the effect outlined in the article linked, wherein the EMF generated by harmonic distortion of the woofer affects the tweeter?
The way I read the article, the woofer generates current that is dissipated by the woofer, but the resistance of the speaker wire between the woofer section and the amplifier allows a voltage to be generated and act upon the tweeter section.
If the woofer is producing sufficient EMF to modulate the output of the amplifier at the output jacks then bi-wiring won't help. If the amplifier is in control but there is significant non-signal current passing through the (single) speaker wire, then this current presents a voltage to the tweeter section and is able to (since it is a harmonic of the bass signal) influence the output of the tweeter.
I thought it was voodoo too, until I considered the non-ideal characteristics of the amplifier, and the non-idea characteristics of the speaker wire. The amplifier isn't a perfect voltage source, and the wire doesn't have zero resistance. For the record, I think that a with good amplifier and a reasonably thick speaker wire to start with, nobody's going to hear a difference from bi-wiring. If I had a lousy amp and only access to thin wire, then I'd consider bi-wiring. Of course, if I couldn't get a good amp and 12 gauge wire, then I probably wouldn't have a set of low distortion speakers either.
The way I read the article, the woofer generates current that is dissipated by the woofer, but the resistance of the speaker wire between the woofer section and the amplifier allows a voltage to be generated and act upon the tweeter section.
If the woofer is producing sufficient EMF to modulate the output of the amplifier at the output jacks then bi-wiring won't help. If the amplifier is in control but there is significant non-signal current passing through the (single) speaker wire, then this current presents a voltage to the tweeter section and is able to (since it is a harmonic of the bass signal) influence the output of the tweeter.
I thought it was voodoo too, until I considered the non-ideal characteristics of the amplifier, and the non-idea characteristics of the speaker wire. The amplifier isn't a perfect voltage source, and the wire doesn't have zero resistance. For the record, I think that a with good amplifier and a reasonably thick speaker wire to start with, nobody's going to hear a difference from bi-wiring. If I had a lousy amp and only access to thin wire, then I'd consider bi-wiring. Of course, if I couldn't get a good amp and 12 gauge wire, then I probably wouldn't have a set of low distortion speakers either.
How much resistance is enough? 3 meter 12AWG wire has 0.01619 Ohm resistance.
I do not question EMF or any of those things. I question how bi-wiring solves them.
I do not fully understand the interaction here. But wouldn't a resistor do the same thing? Then haven't we opened a new can of worms? Especially since some people (http://www.roger-russell.com) insist resistance is the only factor that matters in a speaker cable and lower resistance is better.
I do not question EMF or any of those things. I question how bi-wiring solves them.
I do not fully understand the interaction here. But wouldn't a resistor do the same thing? Then haven't we opened a new can of worms? Especially since some people (http://www.roger-russell.com) insist resistance is the only factor that matters in a speaker cable and lower resistance is better.
I think they will, but I find it really interesting because a week ago I was firmly against bi-wiring having any effect.
I could be switched back against bi-wiring if any of the following could be shown to me:
-Woofers don't produce current output at frequencies in the range of a tweeter
-When the math is done, the magnitude of influence on the tweeter is below the threshold of hearing
-Amplifiers can sink those currents and prevent a voltage from being presented to a tweeter
-The crossover network is effective in preventing the woofer's distortion signal from reaching the tweeter.
Thinking through this, I would have to say that it seems fairly reasonable to say that for a woofer to generate EMF higher in frequency than than the input signal, it would be generating plenty of its own acoustic distortion as well. At this point, the distortion reaching the tweeter input seems somewhat less relevant.
Bottom line- I think the phenomenon is real, but not audibly noticeable or worth doing.
joe carrow said:
Hey Joe,
I used to think this, and still do.
But I have had one noticable exception where bi-wiring made a very big difference, and I am still at a loss to explain. Driving my Elac 510 speakers with an AMC 3050 integrated amplifier (not the 3050a). Seemed to be a large loss of bass until we tried bi-wiring instead of using the clip supplied with the Elacs. Instant improvement!
I'm not saying this is for any esoteric reasons supplied in this or any other 'cable' thread, but there was a definite and wholesale improvement in almost everything to do with the mid-bass driver.
Have never been able to reproduce this with another amp, and I suspect it was failings with the amp itself. Can you really trust an amp that produces 45W into 8ohms, yet can only manage 60W into 4ohms?
The exception which proves the rule (in the true sense of the meaning of the phrase)? See here.
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