Let me say first off that I realize this is a very vague question, but hopefully it will help me narrow down my choices.
I've just built a line array(the ART array from audioroundtable) and I'm enjoying listening to them, but....
This was my first set of speakers to build and now I can't do much but think about my next pair
I'm curious what other people feel is the best imaging design, with equally competent drivers in the design. I've been to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest the past two years and have to say that my favorite room of both years was the Cogent True to Life/Welborne Labs room with those amazing horns. You had to sit in the sweet spot, but once there it was completely different than anything else I've heard. The image presented from vocals and classical was just incredible, in my opinion. I don't think I'm capable of building a clone of that design, and also not sure how much their drivers affected the sound.
The arrays do an ok job... but if you had one design to build and keep for a while(with solid imaging as the goal), what would you go for?
I've been looking at the 'Bruce' spawn, but just not sure yet.
Thanks for any opinions.
Blake
I've just built a line array(the ART array from audioroundtable) and I'm enjoying listening to them, but....
This was my first set of speakers to build and now I can't do much but think about my next pair
I'm curious what other people feel is the best imaging design, with equally competent drivers in the design. I've been to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest the past two years and have to say that my favorite room of both years was the Cogent True to Life/Welborne Labs room with those amazing horns. You had to sit in the sweet spot, but once there it was completely different than anything else I've heard. The image presented from vocals and classical was just incredible, in my opinion. I don't think I'm capable of building a clone of that design, and also not sure how much their drivers affected the sound.
The arrays do an ok job... but if you had one design to build and keep for a while(with solid imaging as the goal), what would you go for?
I've been looking at the 'Bruce' spawn, but just not sure yet.
Thanks for any opinions.
Blake
Yes, you need particular types of drivers for horns. then the equivalent cheaper drivers don't match the expensive ones for imaging.
If you are considering front loaded horns have a browse through the designs and the gallery at
www.bd-design.nl
Bert is very helpful. They sell complete speakers or kits of parts too.
Getting back to drivers:
I have only just built my own Singulars (see above site) with the Fostex FE207E drivers,
I did this after listening to my friend's Singulars but with AER Mk1 drivers (with corresponding notch filter) and can say the imaging is certainly much, much, much better with the AERs. You can place a person within about a foot, and with a vertical offset as well with the right recording.
The AER drivers are about 10 times the price. (and 8dB more efficient)
I am now starting to tinker with the fostex drivers to see if I can get close to the AER sound. Mine have a nasty resonance (well, nasty compared to the AERs) that I hope a set of phase plugs will reduce.
If you are considering front loaded horns have a browse through the designs and the gallery at
www.bd-design.nl
Bert is very helpful. They sell complete speakers or kits of parts too.
Getting back to drivers:
I have only just built my own Singulars (see above site) with the Fostex FE207E drivers,
I did this after listening to my friend's Singulars but with AER Mk1 drivers (with corresponding notch filter) and can say the imaging is certainly much, much, much better with the AERs. You can place a person within about a foot, and with a vertical offset as well with the right recording.
The AER drivers are about 10 times the price. (and 8dB more efficient)
I am now starting to tinker with the fostex drivers to see if I can get close to the AER sound. Mine have a nasty resonance (well, nasty compared to the AERs) that I hope a set of phase plugs will reduce.
Good imaging is all about radiation patterns and room interaction. The horn speakers you heard probably had great imaging because horns are more directional, and most of the goes straight to you instead of bouncing all over the room (screwing up the image).
Another type of speaker that images well is the planar speaker. Magnepan is popular, and supposed to be good value for the money.
You can have the best speakers in the world, but if they're jammed up against the wall in a corner, you're never going to get good imaging. In my opinion, more than half the battle for good imaging is going to be in your room. What can you do with that?
Another type of speaker that images well is the planar speaker. Magnepan is popular, and supposed to be good value for the money.
You can have the best speakers in the world, but if they're jammed up against the wall in a corner, you're never going to get good imaging. In my opinion, more than half the battle for good imaging is going to be in your room. What can you do with that?
OzMike,
the Singular is not the newest of designs, so there might be some tweaks available by now. Onur (who designed them) is a very friendly fellow and reads and writes English perfectly - I don't want to splash email addresses all over the 'net, so if you want to contact him just shoot me a mail.
Pit
Blake,
hardly anything can beat single driver designs (or make that "most important driver") as to imaging. It's the pure unadulterd drug, and incredibly addictive. A 8" driver tends to "beam" - so if you toe them in and aim them at ~arm's length in front of your listening position you won't have too early reflections off the walls blurring the image.
Tweaking the drivers...YES! But taking a knife to them to add a phase plug amounts to open heart surgery. Try reversible measures first, you'll be astonished by what affordable drivers can do.
#1 The .98c trick. (Thanks GM for reminding us). Wrap a thread of wool around the whizzer, down where it meets the main cone.
#2 Felt, or as innerconflict, the Nonphony from Caliphony, has proven to be good, simple household sponge. Use double sided adhesive tape to fix it to the inside of the basket legs.
#3 Caulking on the outside of the basket legs and (very effective) on the front of the magnet and in the gap between magnet and basket.
Have fun (this is an order),
Pit
the Singular is not the newest of designs, so there might be some tweaks available by now. Onur (who designed them) is a very friendly fellow and reads and writes English perfectly - I don't want to splash email addresses all over the 'net, so if you want to contact him just shoot me a mail.
PitBlake,
hardly anything can beat single driver designs (or make that "most important driver") as to imaging. It's the pure unadulterd drug, and incredibly addictive. A 8" driver tends to "beam" - so if you toe them in and aim them at ~arm's length in front of your listening position you won't have too early reflections off the walls blurring the image.
Tweaking the drivers...YES! But taking a knife to them to add a phase plug amounts to open heart surgery. Try reversible measures first, you'll be astonished by what affordable drivers can do.
#1 The .98c trick. (Thanks GM for reminding us). Wrap a thread of wool around the whizzer, down where it meets the main cone.
#2 Felt, or as innerconflict, the Nonphony from Caliphony, has proven to be good, simple household sponge. Use double sided adhesive tape to fix it to the inside of the basket legs.
#3 Caulking on the outside of the basket legs and (very effective) on the front of the magnet and in the gap between magnet and basket.
Have fun (this is an order),
PitPitHinder,
Thankyou very much for the tweaking ideas, Will start my own thread in Fullrange, I certainly dont want to hijack this thread.
Some comments that are on topic:
I have a tile floor, no drapes (only those horrid vertical blinds) a wall & full bookshelf near one speaker and essentially a 6 metre void near the other (a Z shaped lounge/dining room)
The Singulars with AER I heard were in a rectangle room with carpet.
So there you go, start with the room, Buy a rug. I certainly will before I take to my drivers with a knife.
Thankyou very much for the tweaking ideas, Will start my own thread in Fullrange, I certainly dont want to hijack this thread.
Some comments that are on topic:
I have a tile floor, no drapes (only those horrid vertical blinds) a wall & full bookshelf near one speaker and essentially a 6 metre void near the other (a Z shaped lounge/dining room)
The Singulars with AER I heard were in a rectangle room with carpet.
So there you go, start with the room, Buy a rug. I certainly will before I take to my drivers with a knife.
So sorry for the late reply and thanks...
Thank you to all for the input.
RCA...the site is audioroundtable.com. Go to the Group Build forum and click on 'projects' at the top of the page. You can also find info on this build in the Line Array forum at the site.
Thanks for the comment on room correction, or lack of. I do have these set up in my master bedroom(yep, I live alone). I have a theater room down stairs that is well treated, but changing out speakers is a hassle as they are located behind a false front wall and these arrays are heavvvyyyy.
I looked at the site with the horns and realized I had been there before. I was interested in checking out the Osiris line, but haven't gotten much further than just looking at them. I suppose I'll probably go with the frugel horn spawn model 'Bruce'. Its a single, full range driver design. It looks to be a fun build at the very least.
Thanks again for helping out
blake
Thank you to all for the input.
RCA...the site is audioroundtable.com. Go to the Group Build forum and click on 'projects' at the top of the page. You can also find info on this build in the Line Array forum at the site.
Thanks for the comment on room correction, or lack of. I do have these set up in my master bedroom(yep, I live alone). I have a theater room down stairs that is well treated, but changing out speakers is a hassle as they are located behind a false front wall and these arrays are heavvvyyyy.
I looked at the site with the horns and realized I had been there before. I was interested in checking out the Osiris line, but haven't gotten much further than just looking at them. I suppose I'll probably go with the frugel horn spawn model 'Bruce'. Its a single, full range driver design. It looks to be a fun build at the very least.
Thanks again for helping out
blake
Super line arrays
If you post on the audio roundtable on line arrays, I post as Marlboro.
The ART arrays are nice and inexpensive.
However, if you are looking to build something that has you listening to music, and not thinking about your next "build", then you have to build something more extensive than the ART arrays. In this case you have a choice between something like a Selah Audio Rick Craig design with $60 Aurum Cantus mid woofers, $55 B&G Neo3 ribbons and a sub woofer, or go cheaper but focus on what you want.
I took nearly 24 months to build my "Calipso" line arrays. I used 17 Sammi 3 inch mid woofers per side. These little copper coil speakers woven laminated fiber/paper cones with 3.3 xmax were built by the S. Korean manufacturer Sammi with the intent of selling them for about $16 a piece. Unfortunately, no one was willing to pay $16 for a 3 inch speaker.; so they ended up being sold in large quantities by places like PE, and Sammi was happy to unload them. Best bet using my design is a 3 inch HiVi model. Each of these speakers is placed in individual 23.5 inch long 4 inch dia PVC tubes and stuffed with pillow fill covered Fiberglass insulation to a 4lb/ cu foot density, and sealed.
I used 30 Dayton Neo20A tweeters per side. Each one has the flanges cut so that the Center to center distance is about .9 inch lowering the vertical comb filter distortion to above 15Khz or so.
The lower end is covered by one Goldsound(not to be confused with Goldwood) DVC 12 inch woofer in a 6 cu ft box per side.
So the total is 34 mid woofers, 60 tweeters, and two woofers.
Additionally the system is Tri amped. I used a 350 RMS watt per channel power amp for the Woofers, a 150 RMS watt/ch amp for the mid- woofers, and a 60 RMS watt/ch amp for the tweeters. Crossover, speaker time delay, and speaker balance is provided by a Rane AC-23 electronic crossover crossing at 165 and 2650.
The tweeters are placed in the center of the 7.5 foot high array geared for a seated listening position and for people up to about 5'10" in height, which excludes me when I stand up. Nearfield is about 10 feet, and this means that the cylindrical sound pessure is devoid of reflections from the room so that its notnecessary for me to worry about the walls ceiling or floors. System is placed in the 12 foot wall of a 12 x 18 foot room, with standard 8 foot ceiling.
This combination is so astounding that I simply cannot imagine building something better. I can play Michael Murray playing the Toccata & Fugue in D minor for organ, and if I close my eyes believe that I'm in the church. I can play the Beethoven Violin concerto in D and believe that I'm in the 10 row on the floor of the theater. I can play Norman Blake or the Sweet water blues guys and believe that they are 10 feet away and I'm in a small dive listening. I can play Glen Gould playing the Goldberg variations and believe that there really is a grand piano 8 feet away being played just for me.
I now concentrate on buying quality CD's not on trying to build a better mouse trap.
The music is nothing short of astounding. Anything else is MINIATURE MUSIC.
ZARATHU
If you post on the audio roundtable on line arrays, I post as Marlboro.
The ART arrays are nice and inexpensive.
However, if you are looking to build something that has you listening to music, and not thinking about your next "build", then you have to build something more extensive than the ART arrays. In this case you have a choice between something like a Selah Audio Rick Craig design with $60 Aurum Cantus mid woofers, $55 B&G Neo3 ribbons and a sub woofer, or go cheaper but focus on what you want.
I took nearly 24 months to build my "Calipso" line arrays. I used 17 Sammi 3 inch mid woofers per side. These little copper coil speakers woven laminated fiber/paper cones with 3.3 xmax were built by the S. Korean manufacturer Sammi with the intent of selling them for about $16 a piece. Unfortunately, no one was willing to pay $16 for a 3 inch speaker.; so they ended up being sold in large quantities by places like PE, and Sammi was happy to unload them. Best bet using my design is a 3 inch HiVi model. Each of these speakers is placed in individual 23.5 inch long 4 inch dia PVC tubes and stuffed with pillow fill covered Fiberglass insulation to a 4lb/ cu foot density, and sealed.
I used 30 Dayton Neo20A tweeters per side. Each one has the flanges cut so that the Center to center distance is about .9 inch lowering the vertical comb filter distortion to above 15Khz or so.
The lower end is covered by one Goldsound(not to be confused with Goldwood) DVC 12 inch woofer in a 6 cu ft box per side.
So the total is 34 mid woofers, 60 tweeters, and two woofers.
Additionally the system is Tri amped. I used a 350 RMS watt per channel power amp for the Woofers, a 150 RMS watt/ch amp for the mid- woofers, and a 60 RMS watt/ch amp for the tweeters. Crossover, speaker time delay, and speaker balance is provided by a Rane AC-23 electronic crossover crossing at 165 and 2650.
The tweeters are placed in the center of the 7.5 foot high array geared for a seated listening position and for people up to about 5'10" in height, which excludes me when I stand up. Nearfield is about 10 feet, and this means that the cylindrical sound pessure is devoid of reflections from the room so that its notnecessary for me to worry about the walls ceiling or floors. System is placed in the 12 foot wall of a 12 x 18 foot room, with standard 8 foot ceiling.
This combination is so astounding that I simply cannot imagine building something better. I can play Michael Murray playing the Toccata & Fugue in D minor for organ, and if I close my eyes believe that I'm in the church. I can play the Beethoven Violin concerto in D and believe that I'm in the 10 row on the floor of the theater. I can play Norman Blake or the Sweet water blues guys and believe that they are 10 feet away and I'm in a small dive listening. I can play Glen Gould playing the Goldberg variations and believe that there really is a grand piano 8 feet away being played just for me.
I now concentrate on buying quality CD's not on trying to build a better mouse trap.
The music is nothing short of astounding. Anything else is MINIATURE MUSIC.
ZARATHU
joe carrow said:
Joe's right about imaging.
If you can't afford Horns, you might want to try a focused array. They can give you the dynamics similar to horns and they tend to be directional as well. Properly done, they can image very well, much better than "regular" line arrays, IMHO.
There are those that will tell you that it's a dumb idea, and maybe they're right, but I'd rather listen to my focused arrays than to their opinions anytime...
If you want to know more, try a search on this forum using "focused array".
Best Regards,
TerryO
Hi Again,
As for focused arrays, here's a couple of URL's to look at:
http://hometheatertalk.com/httalk/viewtopic.php?t=13124
http://www.gryphon-audio.dk/content/product.asp?ProductID=27
The first is mainly between two Pro Designers discussing line arrays, the comments in the 11th posting down are in reference to my focused arrays.
The 2nd URL is to a Hi-End Speaker Company in Europe that has as one of their products a .......Well, just go there and see for yourself :^)
Enjoy,
TerryO
As for focused arrays, here's a couple of URL's to look at:
http://hometheatertalk.com/httalk/viewtopic.php?t=13124
http://www.gryphon-audio.dk/content/product.asp?ProductID=27
The first is mainly between two Pro Designers discussing line arrays, the comments in the 11th posting down are in reference to my focused arrays.
The 2nd URL is to a Hi-End Speaker Company in Europe that has as one of their products a .......Well, just go there and see for yourself :^)
Enjoy,
TerryO
TerryO
Thanks for the links Terry
I'm pretty sure I've seen your focused arrays somewhere on this site before. And judging by Planet10's comment, lol, I think I'm right. How tough was it to build? It wouldn't be as simple as determining a listening distance and then creating a curve based off of that distance/radius would it?
Think I'm gonna search for your stuff. Thanks!
blake
Thanks for the links Terry
I'm pretty sure I've seen your focused arrays somewhere on this site before. And judging by Planet10's comment, lol, I think I'm right. How tough was it to build? It wouldn't be as simple as determining a listening distance and then creating a curve based off of that distance/radius would it?
Think I'm gonna search for your stuff. Thanks!
blake
With a properly set up fully horn loaded system compared to a properly set up line array I have to the line array can sound bigger and more 3D in imaging than the horns. It also will drive the room better if you have rectangular room and the speakers on the short wall plus it will have a bigger sweet spot and better off axis integration in all directions.... with the right drivers and enough power it may also be better in sheer output and dynamics. YMMV
Re: Re: TerryO
Re: TerryO
quote:
Originally posted by retiredmxer
It wouldn't be as simple as determining a listening distance and then creating a curve based off of that distance/radius would it?
Pretty much
dave
Dave's a man of few words and he has really "pretty much" covered the whole design process, except for one particular:^)
When you've determined the listening distance then you need to determine approximately the distance behind your head you need for the apex. My speakers were intended for an eight foot listening distance so I used a ten and a half (10.5 ft.) radius as that allowed my ear to be inside a "cone of sound" about seven inches high at my listening distance of eight feet.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Re: TerryO
quote:
Originally posted by retiredmxer
It wouldn't be as simple as determining a listening distance and then creating a curve based off of that distance/radius would it?
Pretty much
dave
Dave's a man of few words and he has really "pretty much" covered the whole design process, except for one particular:^)
When you've determined the listening distance then you need to determine approximately the distance behind your head you need for the apex. My speakers were intended for an eight foot listening distance so I used a ten and a half (10.5 ft.) radius as that allowed my ear to be inside a "cone of sound" about seven inches high at my listening distance of eight feet.
Best Regards,
TerryO
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