Love/Hate relationship with Maggie

TexasTim · 8th April 2007, 03:04 PM

Ok, so I love my Maggie MMG's. They do everything (within reason and allowed budget) that I want a loudspeaker to do. Bass is tight, ok, not deep but enjoyable. Midrange present and snappy, high end crisp and non fatiguing. Great sound imaging and soudstage. Perfect? Well only if speaker AND listener placement is Jusssst Right. I am sure you all know this and anyone that has heard Maggies or any planer is familiar with the "critical placement" issue. There is just a quality about planers that I like and I am not sure that I can point to anything particular. Maybe it is the particular distortion inherent the beast or "quickness" or that you got a big hunk of plastic instead of an array of cones moving the air. I loved the QUAD ESL 57 with subs that my friend had when I got started in HiFi. The Maggies do the same for me... It's just that I don't want to have to have a room designed around a speaker and a "golden spot" required to sit in to fully enjoy the speaker. I am aware that all speakers have a sweet spot, but certainly "traditional" designs are not as critical as Maggies and drivers are so much more advanced than when I had my KEF 104 ab boxes. And while they were good they didn't match the qualities of the planer group. So I give this intro to say that I want to build a pair mains that will approximate the qualilties of a Maggie (planer) and yet not require me to sit like a manequin to enjoy them. Oh yah, budget is a concern, course. Can't build using ScanSpeak or the "higher end" Seas etc. Just looking for some opinions on what to focus on when looking for a design, componants, and topologies. Any comments and help would GREATLY be appreaciated.

Ricky · 8th April 2007, 03:12 PM

Hi.

Give me the Physical size of the cabinets you are thinking of and I'll try to tell you the driers you might want to consider.

Ricky.

john65b · 8th April 2007, 04:06 PM

I also have the MMGs and love them... I was bit by the maggie bug a while back and moved to magnepans from B&W. Now I have a UCD400 AD amp powering the MMG's and couldn't be happier - well sorta...

I also am annoyed about the MMG's narrow sweetspot, but can overlook it. I thought of buying one more set and doubling the width of the sweetspot - just might try it someday...connect them tweeter-tweeter with a hinge so they would look like 2/3 of the Timpany series maggies...and connect the speakers with a 4 channel amp - not in series to one stereo amp...

Anyone done this? Any problems with this concept? Anyone got a spare set of MMG's they want to load for the test?

TexasTim · 8th April 2007, 04:53 PM

Ricky... Don't really have a cabinet size in mind yet. I am more interested in the "quality" of sound. Research has indicated that I am looking at 2.5 way designs. But smaller than larger is always good.

John... you obviously know what I am talking about when I refer to "quality of sound" in reference to the maggies. Have you heard anything that compares to "that quality" in a traditional speaker at all???

john65b · 8th April 2007, 05:37 PM

Nope. Heard a pair of 800 series B&W a while back - very nice, but cost/performance just wasn't there for me...Never heard a set of Logans, or Wilson Watts, but they are clearly out of what I wish to spend.

In the MMG's price range, I like Polk LSi7 and LSi9, more expensive are the B&W's 7 series...

I have heard a set of Maggie IIIa recently and lacked some dynamics compared to the MMGs - but they were a good 20 years old.

I have not heard much in that price ranges that grabs you in the way the MMGs can. With a few known caveats (sweetspot, size, placement, etc)...

joe carrow · 8th April 2007, 08:24 PM

Have you heard any dynamic dipoles, such as the Orion? These days it's possible to have 90% of the performance of the Orion for a fraction of the cost.

$250 for a Behringer DCX2496
$60 for a pair of Seas tweeters- or $120 for the Peerless HDS
$70 for a pair of Dayton RS180s
$240 for four Dayton RS270s, or $480 for four RSS265HF

That adds up to $620, or $920 for a premium version without tax or shipping, and you just need six channels of amplification. This would be doable for just over $200 from 41hz.com.

Just the drivers for the standard Orion add up to $1200 on discount from Madisound.

If you have a good subwoofer, I think that the sub-$700 orion clone seems like a great way to get that dipole sound on a rock-bottom budget; and get better sound throughout the room as well. I believe that a big part of the reason that the planar speakers have such limited sweet spots is because they have huge radiating areas for the high frequencies.

Anyway, I guess that was just a rant because I wish I had a room and a budget that would allow me to do it. I hope that inspired someone.

Conrad Hoffman · 8th April 2007, 10:42 PM

I can't offer anything useful except sympathy. Years ago a friend had a set of Magnapans (I think, or were they Magnaplanars?). The clarity was simply wonderful- better than just about any box I've ever heard. In spite of that, we were never quite satisfied. We moved those speakers to every wall and every place in-between. Did various room treatments. This went on and on. I think he finally gave up and sold them. My hearing is nowhere near as good now as then, but IMO the closest you can come is an active crossover (4th order Linkwitz is my choice) and separate power amps on a 3-way system. It's very difficult to get that clarity out of a passively crossed system, not only because of part limitations, but because the active is so much easier to optimize.

DougL · 9th April 2007, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Have you heard any dynamic dipoles, such as the Orion? These days it's possible to have 90% of the performance of the Orion for a fraction of the cost.

You have described my system about 90%.
I went with a Seas MCH14 and a NEO3, with the RS270.
DCX2496 + 2 Teac A700

The sound is fun.

If anyone wants to try this and has questions, I can help.

By the way, no disrespect to Maggies. Great speakers.

Doug

joe carrow · 9th April 2007, 06:04 AM

Sounds like an awesome setup- those Neos have the added benefit of being able to operate as dipole tweeters, which is something that Linkwitz recently started experimenting with.

I'm sure the Magnepans are great- they're low distortion and very clean, and because they're dipoles they interact with rooms in a different way from normal speakers. In the bass range it's often more benign. It seems that their main problem comes from their limited sensitivity and limited dispersion due to large radiating area.

Daveis · 10th April 2007, 03:57 AM

Hi TexasTim,

The small sweetspot ultimately was the reason I couldn't go with the Maggie MG12's myself.

I tried BG RD40, Scanspeak kevlar woofers, Seas Millenium switching to Scanspeak AirCirc's shortly. It's not the same as Maggie. It's not nearly as airy or quick, but using the BG planar gives me a little of it.

But if it's planar sound, you might want to punt and go electrostat headphone. Even my dynamic Grado and Sennheisers sound closer to Maggie realism than most speakers. And a great set of headphone's can be had for under $700.

The Neo3/Neo8PDR may be a different matter than the RD-series BG planars. I find that with my RD40's I have maybe a couch sized area that's fairly listenable.

8th April 2007, 03:04 PM	#1
TexasTim diyAudio Member Join Date: Apr 2007	Love/Hate relationship with Maggie Ok, so I love my Maggie MMG's. They do everything (within reason and allowed budget) that I want a loudspeaker to do. Bass is tight, ok, not deep but enjoyable. Midrange present and snappy, high end crisp and non fatiguing. Great sound imaging and soudstage. Perfect? Well only if speaker AND listener placement is Jusssst Right. I am sure you all know this and anyone that has heard Maggies or any planer is familiar with the "critical placement" issue. There is just a quality about planers that I like and I am not sure that I can point to anything particular. Maybe it is the particular distortion inherent the beast or "quickness" or that you got a big hunk of plastic instead of an array of cones moving the air. I loved the QUAD ESL 57 with subs that my friend had when I got started in HiFi. The Maggies do the same for me... It's just that I don't want to have to have a room designed around a speaker and a "golden spot" required to sit in to fully enjoy the speaker. I am aware that all speakers have a sweet spot, but certainly "traditional" designs are not as critical as Maggies and drivers are so much more advanced than when I had my KEF 104 ab boxes. And while they were good they didn't match the qualities of the planer group. So I give this intro to say that I want to build a pair mains that will approximate the qualilties of a Maggie (planer) and yet not require me to sit like a manequin to enjoy them. Oh yah, budget is a concern, course. Can't build using ScanSpeak or the "higher end" Seas etc. Just looking for some opinions on what to focus on when looking for a design, componants, and topologies. Any comments and help would GREATLY be appreaciated.

8th April 2007, 04:06 PM	#3
john65b diyAudio Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Chicago	me too...but hey. I also have the MMGs and love them... I was bit by the maggie bug a while back and moved to magnepans from B&W. Now I have a UCD400 AD amp powering the MMG's and couldn't be happier - well sorta... I also am annoyed about the MMG's narrow sweetspot, but can overlook it. I thought of buying one more set and doubling the width of the sweetspot - just might try it someday...connect them tweeter-tweeter with a hinge so they would look like 2/3 of the Timpany series maggies...and connect the speakers with a 4 channel amp - not in series to one stereo amp... Anyone done this? Any problems with this concept? Anyone got a spare set of MMG's they want to load for the test?

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8th April 2007, 03:12 PM	#2
Ricky diyAudio Member Join Date: Sep 2005	Hi. Give me the Physical size of the cabinets you are thinking of and I'll try to tell you the driers you might want to consider. Ricky.

8th April 2007, 04:53 PM	#4
TexasTim diyAudio Member Join Date: Apr 2007	Ricky... Don't really have a cabinet size in mind yet. I am more interested in the "quality" of sound. Research has indicated that I am looking at 2.5 way designs. But smaller than larger is always good. John... you obviously know what I am talking about when I refer to "quality of sound" in reference to the maggies. Have you heard anything that compares to "that quality" in a traditional speaker at all???

8th April 2007, 05:37 PM	#5
john65b diyAudio Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Chicago	Nope. Heard a pair of 800 series B&W a while back - very nice, but cost/performance just wasn't there for me...Never heard a set of Logans, or Wilson Watts, but they are clearly out of what I wish to spend. In the MMG's price range, I like Polk LSi7 and LSi9, more expensive are the B&W's 7 series... I have heard a set of Maggie IIIa recently and lacked some dynamics compared to the MMGs - but they were a good 20 years old. I have not heard much in that price ranges that grabs you in the way the MMGs can. With a few known caveats (sweetspot, size, placement, etc)...

8th April 2007, 08:24 PM	#6
joe carrow diyAudio Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: San Francisco	Have you heard any dynamic dipoles, such as the Orion? These days it's possible to have 90% of the performance of the Orion for a fraction of the cost. $250 for a Behringer DCX2496 $60 for a pair of Seas tweeters- or $120 for the Peerless HDS $70 for a pair of Dayton RS180s $240 for four Dayton RS270s, or $480 for four RSS265HF That adds up to $620, or $920 for a premium version without tax or shipping, and you just need six channels of amplification. This would be doable for just over $200 from 41hz.com. Just the drivers for the standard Orion add up to $1200 on discount from Madisound. If you have a good subwoofer, I think that the sub-$700 orion clone seems like a great way to get that dipole sound on a rock-bottom budget; and get better sound throughout the room as well. I believe that a big part of the reason that the planar speakers have such limited sweet spots is because they have huge radiating areas for the high frequencies. Anyway, I guess that was just a rant because I wish I had a room and a budget that would allow me to do it. I hope that inspired someone.

8th April 2007, 10:42 PM	#7
Conrad Hoffman diyAudio Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Canandaigua, NY USA	I can't offer anything useful except sympathy. Years ago a friend had a set of Magnapans (I think, or were they Magnaplanars?). The clarity was simply wonderful- better than just about any box I've ever heard. In spite of that, we were never quite satisfied. We moved those speakers to every wall and every place in-between. Did various room treatments. This went on and on. I think he finally gave up and sold them. My hearing is nowhere near as good now as then, but IMO the closest you can come is an active crossover (4th order Linkwitz is my choice) and separate power amps on a 3-way system. It's very difficult to get that clarity out of a passively crossed system, not only because of part limitations, but because the active is so much easier to optimize.

9th April 2007, 06:04 AM	#9
joe carrow diyAudio Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: San Francisco	Sounds like an awesome setup- those Neos have the added benefit of being able to operate as dipole tweeters, which is something that Linkwitz recently started experimenting with. I'm sure the Magnepans are great- they're low distortion and very clean, and because they're dipoles they interact with rooms in a different way from normal speakers. In the bass range it's often more benign. It seems that their main problem comes from their limited sensitivity and limited dispersion due to large radiating area.

10th April 2007, 03:57 AM	#10
Daveis diyAudio Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Des Moines, IA	Hi TexasTim, The small sweetspot ultimately was the reason I couldn't go with the Maggie MG12's myself. I tried BG RD40, Scanspeak kevlar woofers, Seas Millenium switching to Scanspeak AirCirc's shortly. It's not the same as Maggie. It's not nearly as airy or quick, but using the BG planar gives me a little of it. But if it's planar sound, you might want to punt and go electrostat headphone. Even my dynamic Grado and Sennheisers sound closer to Maggie realism than most speakers. And a great set of headphone's can be had for under $700. The Neo3/Neo8PDR may be a different matter than the RD-series BG planars. I find that with my RD40's I have maybe a couch sized area that's fairly listenable.

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