Here's a system to critique:
Source ->
Some passive attenuator (Creek/Dact/Placette)->
2 x DBX Driverack 240 (1 for ea channel in 1x4 x-over config) ->
ATI at6012 12-channel amp (10 are used here) ->
Speakers (all open baffle except bass, which is sealed):
Tweeter: Raven R2
Upper Mid: ATC SM75-150S mid dome
Lower Mid: Seas W22EX001
Bass: 2 Adire Shiva/channel, mounted push-push on sides, for vibration control
X-overs around 4k, 800, and wherever Seas drops out--hopefully under 100hz
Advantages I see:
--Seems like all drivers are running in their best ranges
--Relatively easy construction for a 4-way, b/c of open baffle and no crossover building
--Easy to tweak x-over settings (except for the fact I need to duplicate all settings on both Driveracks)
--Money is in the drivers, not the electronics, which I like
Possible issues with this setup:
--Driverack quality, I have no problem with an extra AD/DA conversion, as long as it is done right. Also, I'd prefer to run the driverack at full-volume, but can't find a 8-channel volume control that's half-convinient (there is a decent 6-channel Dact attenuator, though).
--Single-ended/Balanced conversion around x-overs
Definite isues with this setup:
--Endless task of x-over optimization...slopes, delays, eq
--Cost!
Source ->
Some passive attenuator (Creek/Dact/Placette)->
2 x DBX Driverack 240 (1 for ea channel in 1x4 x-over config) ->
ATI at6012 12-channel amp (10 are used here) ->
Speakers (all open baffle except bass, which is sealed):
Tweeter: Raven R2
Upper Mid: ATC SM75-150S mid dome
Lower Mid: Seas W22EX001
Bass: 2 Adire Shiva/channel, mounted push-push on sides, for vibration control
X-overs around 4k, 800, and wherever Seas drops out--hopefully under 100hz
Advantages I see:
--Seems like all drivers are running in their best ranges
--Relatively easy construction for a 4-way, b/c of open baffle and no crossover building
--Easy to tweak x-over settings (except for the fact I need to duplicate all settings on both Driveracks)
--Money is in the drivers, not the electronics, which I like
Possible issues with this setup:
--Driverack quality, I have no problem with an extra AD/DA conversion, as long as it is done right. Also, I'd prefer to run the driverack at full-volume, but can't find a 8-channel volume control that's half-convinient (there is a decent 6-channel Dact attenuator, though).
--Single-ended/Balanced conversion around x-overs
Definite isues with this setup:
--Endless task of x-over optimization...slopes, delays, eq
--Cost!
Should be a nice system, although I'm curious why you aren't going dipole all the way. A pair of the Stryke AV15s per side might be just the ticket.
I use the driverack PA for my three way dipoles and think its is great. The quality of the AD conversion is certainly good enough for my ears, although if you have the money units suchs as the BSS Minidrive have digital inputs.
I'm pondering going four way myself although I'm not sure I need the output. I have a spare analog crossover and a Behringer Feedback Destroyer which I could use for the bass.
I'd also love to hear how the Raven goes in such an application. Keep us posted.
Steve
I use the driverack PA for my three way dipoles and think its is great. The quality of the AD conversion is certainly good enough for my ears, although if you have the money units suchs as the BSS Minidrive have digital inputs.
I'm pondering going four way myself although I'm not sure I need the output. I have a spare analog crossover and a Behringer Feedback Destroyer which I could use for the bass.
I'd also love to hear how the Raven goes in such an application. Keep us posted.
Steve
I have been thinking of building a very similar setup. What do you think of using the ESg1's as opposed to the Ravens, they go a little lower and don't have a rising frequency response. Check out Lukasz's site he uses the ATC 75/234 as opposed to the W22's. His Project 10 is very close to your design goals.
http://www.kingston.neostrada.pl/
http://www.kingston.neostrada.pl/
Steve,
Glad to hear that the DRPA sounds good in your application. Do you attenuate the signal before or after it? I'd love to use a purely digital x-over, but I don't have the money. I totally think that's an area of new development, so I'll cheap out for the moment and wait til better & cheaper ones come along.
The bass is the one place where I'm really not set on what I should do. I think dipole bass could be nice, especially in a setup like Linkwitz's dipole woofer (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/woofer.htm), where there's pretty good extension, and vibrations are canceled (and it looks cool). There is some strange behavior with those subs, I think mainly a resonance caused by the sub forming a transmission line in the slit openings. If I go that route, I'm sure I'll have to play around with some filters on the Driverack to smooth the bass out. I'm still not convinced that dipole subs will give me the low bass I want, though (in an attractive cabinet).
Trax,
I thought about using the ESg1's, and still may. I'm really set on the ATC mids and they go high enough for the Ravens. The ESg ribbons are pretty new and there aren't as many glowing reviews for them as for the Ravens (yet). Crappy logic, but one must go on others' words for a project like this. I recently discovered Lukasz's site. Really great.
So, anyone have opinions on the Raven vs. the ESg? Also, what bass drivers are recommended in the sealed (I guess it's a bipole) config, or Linkwitz dipole setup. Preferences: low, tight bass, smallish box, don't need to play that loud.
- John
Glad to hear that the DRPA sounds good in your application. Do you attenuate the signal before or after it? I'd love to use a purely digital x-over, but I don't have the money. I totally think that's an area of new development, so I'll cheap out for the moment and wait til better & cheaper ones come along.
The bass is the one place where I'm really not set on what I should do. I think dipole bass could be nice, especially in a setup like Linkwitz's dipole woofer (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/woofer.htm), where there's pretty good extension, and vibrations are canceled (and it looks cool). There is some strange behavior with those subs, I think mainly a resonance caused by the sub forming a transmission line in the slit openings. If I go that route, I'm sure I'll have to play around with some filters on the Driverack to smooth the bass out. I'm still not convinced that dipole subs will give me the low bass I want, though (in an attractive cabinet).
Trax,
I thought about using the ESg1's, and still may. I'm really set on the ATC mids and they go high enough for the Ravens. The ESg ribbons are pretty new and there aren't as many glowing reviews for them as for the Ravens (yet). Crappy logic, but one must go on others' words for a project like this. I recently discovered Lukasz's site. Really great.
So, anyone have opinions on the Raven vs. the ESg? Also, what bass drivers are recommended in the sealed (I guess it's a bipole) config, or Linkwitz dipole setup. Preferences: low, tight bass, smallish box, don't need to play that loud.
- John
You'll get best results keeping the power amp gains as low as possible, ie preamp as high as you can. You can do this either by adjusting the amp gain (if you use pro amps) or by adjusting the gain in the dbx in the xover section, which is the way I do it.
I'm going dipole all the way with the bass. I have just got 2 Adire DPL12s but am waiting for my holes to do a test. However, one Stryke AV12 theoritically gives more output.
We'll see.
Steve
I'm going dipole all the way with the bass. I have just got 2 Adire DPL12s but am waiting for my holes to do a test. However, one Stryke AV12 theoritically gives more output.
We'll see.
Steve
cogs said:Here's a system to critique:
Speakers (all open baffle except bass, which is sealed):
Tweeter: Raven R2
Upper Mid: ATC SM75-150S mid dome
Lower Mid: Seas W22EX001
Bass: 2 Adire Shiva/channel, mounted push-push on sides, for vibration control
Well.. this is not an open baffle speaker with closed box bass.
What you describe is a 4way closed box speaker with only open baffle/dipole upper bass. This smell uneven power response and I suggest you choose another solution.
The Raven is closed box, ATC mid is closed as well(as far as I know), and then your "sub-bass".
If you want low bass you will get that without problems from dipole bass, the question is how loud you can play. It is in the bass a dipole really shines well actually ... let´s say 20Hz-500Hz.
A four way makes sense for a killer design, however I would suggest dipole bass, upper bass AND mids, and then your Raven.
/Peter
I agree with Pan with your bass design goals of not needing to play that loud that you should go dipole bass as well. I tend to disagree with Pan that you should go dipole midrange. I think one of the main advantages of a dipole mid is the freedom of box resonance and rear wave reflections coloring the cone however even though the ATC's are closed backed the dome is an open weave fabric and therefore free of cavity resonance and are not colored by back waves as a solid cone would be. They are without a doubt the best midrange I have heard and in no way sound boxy. They are exceptional speakers and have a hard time believing that any dipole cone could better them.
The only doubt I have about using the ATC vs. dipole cones is in the area of power response. I know that most dipole speakers are only dipole up to the tweeter or about 2Khz so how will going dipole to only 800hz affect the overall design? What are the advantages or disadvantages of choosing a lower dipole cutoff point?
The size and shape of the baffle and depth of the wings have a huge effect on a dipole speaker’s power response and smoothness of its horizontal dispersion. Right now it is more of an art than a science, pretty much try and measure. It seems that one advantage of an 800hz dipole cutoff point would be a little more freedom from these baffle effects.
I like this design:
ESg1 Tweeter
ATC 75/150s mid
ATC 75/234s upper bass (dipole)
Linkwitz Orion lower bass (dipole) would consider other drivers though
The only doubt I have about using the ATC vs. dipole cones is in the area of power response. I know that most dipole speakers are only dipole up to the tweeter or about 2Khz so how will going dipole to only 800hz affect the overall design? What are the advantages or disadvantages of choosing a lower dipole cutoff point?
The size and shape of the baffle and depth of the wings have a huge effect on a dipole speaker’s power response and smoothness of its horizontal dispersion. Right now it is more of an art than a science, pretty much try and measure. It seems that one advantage of an 800hz dipole cutoff point would be a little more freedom from these baffle effects.
I like this design:
ESg1 Tweeter
ATC 75/150s mid
ATC 75/234s upper bass (dipole)
Linkwitz Orion lower bass (dipole) would consider other drivers though
Peter,
I agree with you about the power response, and have refined the design a little. So, ether both the Seas and Adire will be sealed or open. Haven't decided if open baffle is the way to go, since above about 800 hz will be sealed. The dipoles I've heard (Maggies) had a nice big soundstage, but their pinpoint imaging isn't as good as my current monopoles. Prob will use Shiva's for sealed or DPL-12 for open baffle.
Steve,
How are the W22's in your dipoles? Where do you cross them over to the low woofers? Any eq for them? You think only one per side will produce enough output without bottoming (in a typical situation)?
Are the Stryke AV's available yet?
Thanks,
- John
I agree with you about the power response, and have refined the design a little. So, ether both the Seas and Adire will be sealed or open. Haven't decided if open baffle is the way to go, since above about 800 hz will be sealed. The dipoles I've heard (Maggies) had a nice big soundstage, but their pinpoint imaging isn't as good as my current monopoles. Prob will use Shiva's for sealed or DPL-12 for open baffle.
Steve,
How are the W22's in your dipoles? Where do you cross them over to the low woofers? Any eq for them? You think only one per side will produce enough output without bottoming (in a typical situation)?
Are the Stryke AV's available yet?
Thanks,
- John
cogs
I can think of two reasons the Maggies do not have the pin point you want;
One, they are linesources/panel speakers,
two, they probably had strong backwall reflections in the set up you heard them in?
If you go with a "point source" dipole and make sure the speakers are 1-2 meters from back wall AND (best of all) use absorbers and/or diffusors then you will get excellent imaging focus.
Trax,
IMO boxiness comes from the standing waves in the room more than the box itself (if box is correct build), therefor I can imagine a dipole cone (Accuton or Excel) better the ATC in a small or medium sized room.
/Peter
I can think of two reasons the Maggies do not have the pin point you want;
One, they are linesources/panel speakers,
two, they probably had strong backwall reflections in the set up you heard them in?
If you go with a "point source" dipole and make sure the speakers are 1-2 meters from back wall AND (best of all) use absorbers and/or diffusors then you will get excellent imaging focus.
Trax,
IMO boxiness comes from the standing waves in the room more than the box itself (if box is correct build), therefor I can imagine a dipole cone (Accuton or Excel) better the ATC in a small or medium sized room.
/Peter
You might want to check this link:
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/discuss.cgi?read=232470
Seems a similar project.
And I think the Driverack sounds great. Does in my sytem anyway.
Steve
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/discuss.cgi?read=232470
Seems a similar project.
And I think the Driverack sounds great. Does in my sytem anyway.
Steve
Another four-way project? I`ve done a similar project, only with different drivers. Scanspeak SD-9700 - Dynaudio D-52(modified)- Seas G17REX/P(+magnet)- MGR 25P-40(cheap but extremely fast Korean,modifyed and tuned to low 20`s)(-but it don`t give up even there..?)
I`m using the 2"-dome 2.5 - 6/7khz(no filter on top) and just adding the tweeter from 7khz and up by (just!) a 2.2uf tinnfoil-cap. Btw, my system is 1.order(electric) all over, just tricking a little with some imp.corrs. - You think Avantgarde is dynamic?
The 8"-driver you`re going for needs to be a fast one to give music the right snap, that`s why I`ve choosen a fast 6.5" (it`s fast after adding another magnet!)
The ATC-dome is definitly a good mid, but it`s allso 3-4db more sensitive than most other drivers. And, just by adding some resistanse to calm it down you will reduce it`s sound quality.
Just these days I`m starting up trying to rebuild my four-way, but now using a Morel MDM55 since Dynaudio is no longer awayable. And a more common bass-driver; the Koreans stopped doing the model I`ve used.
The Morel is wery close to/a copy of the Dynaudio, so my superb filter will hardly need any adjustments, at least that`s what I hope for
That leads up to: If you`re interested I could give you some filter-tips, but then you would need to choose the same drivers as I`m using. Sound-quality?
I`m using the 2"-dome 2.5 - 6/7khz(no filter on top) and just adding the tweeter from 7khz and up by (just!) a 2.2uf tinnfoil-cap. Btw, my system is 1.order(electric) all over, just tricking a little with some imp.corrs. - You think Avantgarde is dynamic?
The 8"-driver you`re going for needs to be a fast one to give music the right snap, that`s why I`ve choosen a fast 6.5" (it`s fast after adding another magnet!)
The ATC-dome is definitly a good mid, but it`s allso 3-4db more sensitive than most other drivers. And, just by adding some resistanse to calm it down you will reduce it`s sound quality.
Just these days I`m starting up trying to rebuild my four-way, but now using a Morel MDM55 since Dynaudio is no longer awayable. And a more common bass-driver; the Koreans stopped doing the model I`ve used.
The Morel is wery close to/a copy of the Dynaudio, so my superb filter will hardly need any adjustments, at least that`s what I hope for
That leads up to: If you`re interested I could give you some filter-tips, but then you would need to choose the same drivers as I`m using. Sound-quality?
So, I've been doing some more dreaming, and here are my latest ideas... Enjoy.
An active 5-way system (!). I thought I had the low bass doing too much in my last config. And I still think monopole is best for the extreme low bass.
--2x BSS Minidrive FDS-336 digital crossover, running in 1x5 mode. One for each channel. These seem to be much more respected for their sound quality than the dbx DRPA (plus the DRPA can't do mono 1x6).
--1x ATI at6012 Amp
Drivers & x-overs:
raven 2 (sealed or whatever)
--4K
ATC mid dome (sealed)
--800
Scanspeak 7" Revelator (dipole), look at its freq response, mmm...
--120
Peerless XLS 12" (dipole), maybe the Seas W26
--50
Adire Tempest (sealed, perhaps bipole), one amp channel per voice coil if not bipole, one per speaker if bipole...not ideal power for these, but enough for my SPLs.
The subwoofers will be in seperate boxes (or sonotubes).
Clearly, cost ain't an object here.
These drivers have varying sensitivities, but it isn't a huge problem since the system is active.
For the complexity and cost, I think this system could be pretty pretty.
ha HA!
An active 5-way system (!). I thought I had the low bass doing too much in my last config. And I still think monopole is best for the extreme low bass.
--2x BSS Minidrive FDS-336 digital crossover, running in 1x5 mode. One for each channel. These seem to be much more respected for their sound quality than the dbx DRPA (plus the DRPA can't do mono 1x6).
--1x ATI at6012 Amp
Drivers & x-overs:
raven 2 (sealed or whatever)
--4K
ATC mid dome (sealed)
--800
Scanspeak 7" Revelator (dipole), look at its freq response, mmm...
--120
Peerless XLS 12" (dipole), maybe the Seas W26
--50
Adire Tempest (sealed, perhaps bipole), one amp channel per voice coil if not bipole, one per speaker if bipole...not ideal power for these, but enough for my SPLs.
The subwoofers will be in seperate boxes (or sonotubes).
Clearly, cost ain't an object here.
These drivers have varying sensitivities, but it isn't a huge problem since the system is active.
For the complexity and cost, I think this system could be pretty pretty.
ha HA!
Here is the price quote I got from Solen, they aren't cheap.
1 1 0 SM75-15008 75mm Text 19cm ATC England 368.51
1 1 0 SM75-150S08 75mm Text 19cm ATC England 524.83
1 1 0 SB75-234S08 24cm 75mm Pape ATC England 343.27
1 1 0 SB75-234L08 24cm 75mm Pape ATC England 279.50
1 1 0 SB75-31408 32cm 75mm Pape ATC England 394.48
1 1 0 SB100-375L8 40cm 10cm Pape ATC England 519.78
1 1 0 SB100-375S8 40cm 10cm Pape ATC England 566.41
1 1 0 SB75-375L08 40cm 75mm Pape ATC England 395.01
1 1 0 SB75-375S08 40cm 75mm Pape ATC England 438.67
The super version will run you about a grand a pair.
Here is a link to another person using the ATC mids and if cost is no object then you might want to consider using the Skaaning 170's as he does as opposed to the 7" Revelators
http://home13.inet.tele.dk/meil/
1 1 0 SM75-15008 75mm Text 19cm ATC England 368.51
1 1 0 SM75-150S08 75mm Text 19cm ATC England 524.83
1 1 0 SB75-234S08 24cm 75mm Pape ATC England 343.27
1 1 0 SB75-234L08 24cm 75mm Pape ATC England 279.50
1 1 0 SB75-31408 32cm 75mm Pape ATC England 394.48
1 1 0 SB100-375L8 40cm 10cm Pape ATC England 519.78
1 1 0 SB100-375S8 40cm 10cm Pape ATC England 566.41
1 1 0 SB75-375L08 40cm 75mm Pape ATC England 395.01
1 1 0 SB75-375S08 40cm 75mm Pape ATC England 438.67
The super version will run you about a grand a pair.
Here is a link to another person using the ATC mids and if cost is no object then you might want to consider using the Skaaning 170's as he does as opposed to the 7" Revelators
http://home13.inet.tele.dk/meil/
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