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Old 13th January 2003, 04:15 PM   #1
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Location: Boston
Question Scary Good Setup?

Here's a system to critique:

Source ->
Some passive attenuator (Creek/Dact/Placette)->
2 x DBX Driverack 240 (1 for ea channel in 1x4 x-over config) ->
ATI at6012 12-channel amp (10 are used here) ->

Speakers (all open baffle except bass, which is sealed):
Tweeter: Raven R2
Upper Mid: ATC SM75-150S mid dome
Lower Mid: Seas W22EX001
Bass: 2 Adire Shiva/channel, mounted push-push on sides, for vibration control

X-overs around 4k, 800, and wherever Seas drops out--hopefully under 100hz

Advantages I see:
--Seems like all drivers are running in their best ranges
--Relatively easy construction for a 4-way, b/c of open baffle and no crossover building
--Easy to tweak x-over settings (except for the fact I need to duplicate all settings on both Driveracks)
--Money is in the drivers, not the electronics, which I like

Possible issues with this setup:
--Driverack quality, I have no problem with an extra AD/DA conversion, as long as it is done right. Also, I'd prefer to run the driverack at full-volume, but can't find a 8-channel volume control that's half-convinient (there is a decent 6-channel Dact attenuator, though).
--Single-ended/Balanced conversion around x-overs

Definite isues with this setup:
--Endless task of x-over optimization...slopes, delays, eq
--Cost!
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Old 13th January 2003, 08:25 PM   #2
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Should be a nice system, although I'm curious why you aren't going dipole all the way. A pair of the Stryke AV15s per side might be just the ticket.

I use the driverack PA for my three way dipoles and think its is great. The quality of the AD conversion is certainly good enough for my ears, although if you have the money units suchs as the BSS Minidrive have digital inputs.

I'm pondering going four way myself although I'm not sure I need the output. I have a spare analog crossover and a Behringer Feedback Destroyer which I could use for the bass.

I'd also love to hear how the Raven goes in such an application. Keep us posted.

Steve
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Old 14th January 2003, 12:44 AM   #3
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I have been thinking of building a very similar setup. What do you think of using the ESg1's as opposed to the Ravens, they go a little lower and don't have a rising frequency response. Check out Lukasz's site he uses the ATC 75/234 as opposed to the W22's. His Project 10 is very close to your design goals.


http://www.kingston.neostrada.pl/
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Old 14th January 2003, 03:34 AM   #4
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Steve,
Glad to hear that the DRPA sounds good in your application. Do you attenuate the signal before or after it? I'd love to use a purely digital x-over, but I don't have the money. I totally think that's an area of new development, so I'll cheap out for the moment and wait til better & cheaper ones come along.

The bass is the one place where I'm really not set on what I should do. I think dipole bass could be nice, especially in a setup like Linkwitz's dipole woofer (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/woofer.htm), where there's pretty good extension, and vibrations are canceled (and it looks cool). There is some strange behavior with those subs, I think mainly a resonance caused by the sub forming a transmission line in the slit openings. If I go that route, I'm sure I'll have to play around with some filters on the Driverack to smooth the bass out. I'm still not convinced that dipole subs will give me the low bass I want, though (in an attractive cabinet).

Trax,
I thought about using the ESg1's, and still may. I'm really set on the ATC mids and they go high enough for the Ravens. The ESg ribbons are pretty new and there aren't as many glowing reviews for them as for the Ravens (yet). Crappy logic, but one must go on others' words for a project like this. I recently discovered Lukasz's site. Really great.

So, anyone have opinions on the Raven vs. the ESg? Also, what bass drivers are recommended in the sealed (I guess it's a bipole) config, or Linkwitz dipole setup. Preferences: low, tight bass, smallish box, don't need to play that loud.

- John
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Old 14th January 2003, 09:00 AM   #5
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You'll get best results keeping the power amp gains as low as possible, ie preamp as high as you can. You can do this either by adjusting the amp gain (if you use pro amps) or by adjusting the gain in the dbx in the xover section, which is the way I do it.

I'm going dipole all the way with the bass. I have just got 2 Adire DPL12s but am waiting for my holes to do a test. However, one Stryke AV12 theoritically gives more output.

We'll see.

Steve
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Old 14th January 2003, 09:03 AM   #6
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Sorry, dumb site won't let me edit. I have 4 DPL12s, 2 per side.

Steve
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Old 14th January 2003, 09:52 AM   #7
Pan is offline Pan  Sweden
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Default Re: Scary Good Setup?

Quote:
Originally posted by cogs
Here's a system to critique:
Speakers (all open baffle except bass, which is sealed):
Tweeter: Raven R2
Upper Mid: ATC SM75-150S mid dome
Lower Mid: Seas W22EX001
Bass: 2 Adire Shiva/channel, mounted push-push on sides, for vibration control
Well.. this is not an open baffle speaker with closed box bass.

What you describe is a 4way closed box speaker with only open baffle/dipole upper bass. This smell uneven power response and I suggest you choose another solution.

The Raven is closed box, ATC mid is closed as well(as far as I know), and then your "sub-bass".

If you want low bass you will get that without problems from dipole bass, the question is how loud you can play. It is in the bass a dipole really shines well actually ... lets say 20Hz-500Hz.

A four way makes sense for a killer design, however I would suggest dipole bass, upper bass AND mids, and then your Raven.

/Peter
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Old 14th January 2003, 06:05 PM   #8
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Stupid site still won't let me edit. One AV15 should be equal to two Adire DPL12s.

Steve
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Old 15th January 2003, 03:11 AM   #9
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I agree with Pan with your bass design goals of not needing to play that loud that you should go dipole bass as well. I tend to disagree with Pan that you should go dipole midrange. I think one of the main advantages of a dipole mid is the freedom of box resonance and rear wave reflections coloring the cone however even though the ATC's are closed backed the dome is an open weave fabric and therefore free of cavity resonance and are not colored by back waves as a solid cone would be. They are without a doubt the best midrange I have heard and in no way sound boxy. They are exceptional speakers and have a hard time believing that any dipole cone could better them.

The only doubt I have about using the ATC vs. dipole cones is in the area of power response. I know that most dipole speakers are only dipole up to the tweeter or about 2Khz so how will going dipole to only 800hz affect the overall design? What are the advantages or disadvantages of choosing a lower dipole cutoff point?

The size and shape of the baffle and depth of the wings have a huge effect on a dipole speakers power response and smoothness of its horizontal dispersion. Right now it is more of an art than a science, pretty much try and measure. It seems that one advantage of an 800hz dipole cutoff point would be a little more freedom from these baffle effects.

I like this design:

ESg1 Tweeter
ATC 75/150s mid
ATC 75/234s upper bass (dipole)
Linkwitz Orion lower bass (dipole) would consider other drivers though
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Old 15th January 2003, 03:16 AM   #10
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Peter,
I agree with you about the power response, and have refined the design a little. So, ether both the Seas and Adire will be sealed or open. Haven't decided if open baffle is the way to go, since above about 800 hz will be sealed. The dipoles I've heard (Maggies) had a nice big soundstage, but their pinpoint imaging isn't as good as my current monopoles. Prob will use Shiva's for sealed or DPL-12 for open baffle.

Steve,
How are the W22's in your dipoles? Where do you cross them over to the low woofers? Any eq for them? You think only one per side will produce enough output without bottoming (in a typical situation)?

Are the Stryke AV's available yet?

Thanks,
- John
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