How do my JBL4412a speakers compare.....

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Foxx510

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Joined 2006
Just wondering how my JBL 4412a speakers compare to something I could build for $2000AUD ($1550USD) using modern components and a well known modern DIY design or kit. I like the punch and robustness of my JBL's but I want something that sounds "bigger"and more involving. The JBLs have a very narrow sweet spot, and I always know there is a speaker there. I want the speakers to dissapear. They need to be able to play loud and have some punch though also, this is a must.
Any input is appreciated.

Thanks
Adam
 
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MadMutt

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Joined 2006
I would be very tempted to have a play with a new xover first.
Thats whats letting these speakers down.

Have a look at Troel's site to see what even older jbl's are capable of doing.

If your not concerned about resale value I'd be doing a new cabinet and doing a xover from scratch.
Cabinet and xover have never been jbl's strong point.

EDIT.
A replacement might outperform them, depends on what you get.
I have troels Ekta's and they do sound different to jbl's (15"pro with compression mid and slot tweeter) but better, hmmm, can't say their better, just different.
And for reference I haven't done a 'proper' xover for the 150ltr jbl's yet.
 
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Foxx510

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Joined 2006
Thanks for that, his site is down at the moment so I could only view bits and pieces from the google cache. So would it be possible to get a significant improvement with a different cabnet and maybe a behringer active crossover setup? I know these are hard questions to answer without listening tests. I have little money to invest here as I am currently unable to work due to illness. The cabnets on these have always concerned me, they arent well made at all. The bass driver however is a different story. Beefy! I'm not adverse to a different cabnet design altogether, size is not an issue here. Could a TL cab work better maybe..... I still have a lot to learn here, so forgive me if my questions seem a bit naive.

Thanks
Adam
 
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EspenE

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Joined 2003
Foxx510 said:
...... I guess my question is will the current good DIY/Kit speakers significantly outperform my 4412a's?

Thanks
Adam
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure. The JBL 4412a is IMO a nice speaker. Most modern DIY/kits will sound different, that's for sure - probably smoother and somewhat less colored than the 4412, but also with less punch and power.

If you select to modify your 4412's, a new and better braced cabinet would be nice. The 128H is a very good and sturdy unit. In a 70L reflex cabinet tuned to 30 Hz it will give strong bass down to 30 Hz, excursion limited to about 100dB SPL @ 30 Hz. This compares very favorably to today's usual DIY/Kit speakers, with usually has only 7 or 8" bass units. You will need subwoofers or speakers with bigger (or two) units to compete with 4412 in the bass/SPL demartment.

Also keep in mind that your 4412 has about 90dB efficiency (which is quite high). Most of today's DIY/Kit speakers are less efficient that this - putting more demands on your amplifier.

I don't think you will be able to improve significantly on the 4412's with crossover modifications, better crossover parts or active Behringer-based crossover.

IMO the 104h midrange and (to a lesser extent) the 052Ti tweeter are the weak points of the 4412. Better to replace them with more modern and better units - for example the Seas MCA15RCY and the 27TFFC. But then again: you are on your own on crossover design, and you really needs some measuring equipment.

If you not feel up to this, it would probably be safer to go with a documented design. Check out zaphaudio or troelsgravesen.dk.

Espen
 
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MadMutt

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Troels tried a 12" jbl (123 ?) in his wide baffle and rather liked it from memory.
I was looking at doing this myself, but decided to keep my 4311's original (for the moment).
In a 1 on 1 show down the sspeak 9500 eats the jbl le25 (paper tweeter) for breaky.
BUT in a system with a proper xover I think the difference will be less.

Don't think I'd go active with them.
As a start I'd pull the bass driver a see what the xover is first.
Then if you have the gear, try active and playing with xover points etc.
Troels suggests around 80 ltr for the 123/2213 and xover of about 800.

I have only heard the jbl Titanium tweeters briefly so cant comment on them, although a (now closed) well respected jbl dealer here never liked them.
He was comparing them against b&w's mind you.....

If you've got the money and time, make an 80 ltr ported and go from there.
I think they'd be worth it.
 
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Foxx510

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Joined 2006
Thanks for all the replies. It is a hard call to make, as I really love the clean SPL these things make, and I think I would miss it if my next speakers didn't have it. I guess what I'm thinking is that these drivers were designed in the 90s, surely things have come a long way since then. I'm sure I could get more detail in the mids and highs with something more modern. I think I would be out of my depth modifying these so I will wait until I have heard something that I like before moving on to a new system. What I will do in the meantime is set them up in my spare room where I can move them away from the walls and get them closer together, I think the current positioning could be hurting the imaging a lot. Some old Realistic MACH ONEs :eek: will have to do duties for everyday listening and movies for now.

One speaker I am very interested in is this one from IPL acoustics It is a big call buying something not having heard it first though! I just get the feeling I would like it for some reason...

Thanks
Adam
 
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Foxx510

Member
Joined 2006
So I went ahead and set up the 4412a monitors in a room where I can listen to them near field, as they were designed to be used. As I suspected they do image ok in this configuration. I think I was just expecting them to do something they weren't designed for. They are made to be listened to in one position and if you move from this the image collapses. Interestingly, in the room they are in, I can make all the low bass dissappear by moving them 30cm forward in the room. Up until a few months ago I didn't realise how much the room and listening position affected the response of a speaker. You almost need to eq for the listening position to get a flat response. I will stick with these until I find something better. The linkwitz Orions look interesting, but I wonder how they would go with some of my less than wonderful recordings.
 
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MadMutt

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Joined 2006
Har har, funny.

What you want to do is go out and about and find one of those 'bargin surplus systems' that are 'falling' out of 'white van' land....


Yes the jbl's are very picky on placement, even more reason to put the bass driver in something a bit more reasonable..
 
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Foxx510

Member
Joined 2006
Still tossing up ideas, if I were to build a new cabinet for these, is there any advantage in going larger than say 80Liters? Looking at winisd plots it looks like bigger is better. Being "unattached" means I can build massive speakers if I so desire...... :D
I'm thinking taller and a bit skinnier than the current box and with a classic vertical speaker arrangement. How close should my drivers be together?

Thanks for answering my newbie questions!

Adam
 
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