As Joel stated above, see him for the waveguides. As for the rest, where are you located? In the States, I used the following:
Parts Express: the #1 source for audio, video & speaker building components
Madisound Speaker Components: distributor of loudspeaker drivers and parts for speaker builders.
Premium grade audio components including crossover inductors, audio capacitors, electronic assemblies | ERSE Audio
Sonic Craft High-End DIY Audio Parts
And for the damping material...
MCM Electronics: Home and Pro Audio/Video, Security and Test Equipment
Hope this helps....
Hi!
I am seroiusly thinking about building me a pair of these wonderful speakers, but i have some questions i need to get answered first.
As i live in sweden it isnt especially economic for me to buy Joels waveguides as they probalby would end up around $300 at my door.
So, i was thinking of building me a pair of Elsies from some older Mk that doesn´t use the Joel waveguide at first and then later upgrade.
1. Is the Mk 4 version using the Joel Wg?
2. Where do i find complete info about the last Mark that doesn´t use Joel Wg?
3. And, If i Build the latest Mk without Wg, is it easy to upgrade to Mk 5 later on?
As I don´t know about the Mk 4 version my thinking was to build the Mark 3 version with the felt around the tweeter and the mark 3 crossover as that info is somewhat easy to find, and later on as i said upgrade when i have the ability to cnc my own waveguide.
4. Can somebody please point me to the info needed to build a Elsie "felt version"?
5. The felt, can I use that kind of felt that is used as cloth on subwoofers in cars? You know that black cloth on the boxes.
6. If that´t not the best idea, how should the felt be? 2mm? 5mm? thick? See trough?
7. Should the felt be in two layers or should i put on more and more layers gradually so it looks somewhat like stairs instead of just 2-3 layers?
Many questions.. If you know the answer to just one of them, please write it
As it is know, it is a lot of info to look trough and it is hard to know which of it apllies to the "felt version"
Best regards, Mathias.
I have never felt so strong about a spreker project before as i do about the Elsies. So so much info, so much thought into it that it is amazing.
I am seroiusly thinking about building me a pair of these wonderful speakers, but i have some questions i need to get answered first.
As i live in sweden it isnt especially economic for me to buy Joels waveguides as they probalby would end up around $300 at my door.
So, i was thinking of building me a pair of Elsies from some older Mk that doesn´t use the Joel waveguide at first and then later upgrade.
1. Is the Mk 4 version using the Joel Wg?
2. Where do i find complete info about the last Mark that doesn´t use Joel Wg?
3. And, If i Build the latest Mk without Wg, is it easy to upgrade to Mk 5 later on?
As I don´t know about the Mk 4 version my thinking was to build the Mark 3 version with the felt around the tweeter and the mark 3 crossover as that info is somewhat easy to find, and later on as i said upgrade when i have the ability to cnc my own waveguide.
4. Can somebody please point me to the info needed to build a Elsie "felt version"?
5. The felt, can I use that kind of felt that is used as cloth on subwoofers in cars? You know that black cloth on the boxes.
6. If that´t not the best idea, how should the felt be? 2mm? 5mm? thick? See trough?
7. Should the felt be in two layers or should i put on more and more layers gradually so it looks somewhat like stairs instead of just 2-3 layers?
Many questions.. If you know the answer to just one of them, please write it
As it is know, it is a lot of info to look trough and it is hard to know which of it apllies to the "felt version"
Best regards, Mathias.
I have never felt so strong about a spreker project before as i do about the Elsies. So so much info, so much thought into it that it is amazing.
I will answer a couple of them quickly as they are the important ones.
I have no doubt that Troel's Waveguide is excellent, but it is not compatible for a variety of reasons, as even he would tell you. Joel's Waveguide dimensions are part of a complex computer modelling, even as Troel's designs are as well (the modelling is done when the measurements are taken when the drivers are in the box with that Waveguide fitted right there and then). Also the "offset" is very different, and that will affect where the impulses of the driver's end up. By offset, I mean they don't put back the tweeter by the same amount, Troel's looks way too deep.
Do not make Mk4 with the intention of upgrading to Mk 5 later, it would mean wasting a LOT of money.
The problem: The Crossovers are TOTALLY different !!!
The cost of the Crossovers are DOUBLED!
Also the performance difference between Mk4 and Mk5 is HUGE !!!
If cost is a problem, and we all have to live within our means, then I would be patient and wait until I could do it properly and that means aim for Mk5. You won't regret it.
While waiting, you could still start by building the boxes and get the rest as you go along. Just an idea.
Cheers, Joe R.
Hi!
I am seroiusly thinking about building me a pair of these wonderful speakers, but i have some questions i need to get answered first.
As i live in sweden it isnt especially economic for me to buy Joels waveguides as they probalby would end up around $300 at my door.
So, i was thinking of building me a pair of Elsies from some older Mk that doesn´t use the Joel waveguide at first and then later upgrade.
1. Is the Mk 4 version using the Joel Wg?
2. Where do i find complete info about the last Mark that doesn´t use Joel Wg?
3. And, If i Build the latest Mk without Wg, is it easy to upgrade to Mk 5 later on?
As I don´t know about the Mk 4 version my thinking was to build the Mark 3 version with the felt around the tweeter and the mark 3 crossover as that info is somewhat easy to find, and later on as i said upgrade when i have the ability to cnc my own waveguide.
4. Can somebody please point me to the info needed to build a Elsie "felt version"?
5. The felt, can I use that kind of felt that is used as cloth on subwoofers in cars? You know that black cloth on the boxes.
6. If that´t not the best idea, how should the felt be? 2mm? 5mm? thick? See trough?
7. Should the felt be in two layers or should i put on more and more layers gradually so it looks somewhat like stairs instead of just 2-3 layers?
Many questions.. If you know the answer to just one of them, please write it
As it is know, it is a lot of info to look trough and it is hard to know which of it apllies to the "felt version"
Best regards, Mathias.
I have never felt so strong about a spreker project before as i do about the Elsies. So so much info, so much thought into it that it is amazing.
Maybe Joe has some of the MDF waveguides left which should weigh considerably less than than the alloy ones and reduce the freight cost?? Just a thought.
Alas no. The final pair I have here is promised to somebody else.
The difference between Mk3 and Mk4 were minimal. The difference between Mk4 and Mk5 were rather substantial, and so was the improvement.
Cheers, Joe R.
Hi again!
Troel´s Wg?
I meant Joels, i might have spelled wrong, many different names..
I do know that a waveguid is only suited to use in a situation that has ben modelled for that particular waveguide. I have no intention in using any other waveguide than that modeled for this speaker.
Okey, i will try to refrase.
As i have a somewhat limited budget right now, i was thinking of building a "felt" version of the elsies to begin with.
I have searched and read some more and i see that that the Mk 3 version uses felt around the tweeter. I can also find info regarding the xo for that verison too.
So, is it possible for me to build the Mk 3 version, with felt to start with?
I have no problem in building a new crossover or even a new box later on, that is no problem. For that i can save some months or whatever.
So, my thought is to build a felt version now. Then, later on upgrade to a expensive Mk 5 with a real good crossover and such.
This verion would be somewhat of a budget version, felt, cheaper xo parts, etc etc.
So, the question is, the info around the lates "felt" version, which is it? Mk3 i guess?
There is no need to worry if it isn´t possible to upgrade to Mk 5 in the same box or that it uses a new crossover. My plan has almost the whole time been to build a cheaper box, with a little bit chaper xo parts as a beginning, and then later on build a REAL fine version when the funds allow it. With no cheapish parts, no budget thinking what so ever.
This is possible, right?
Troel´s Wg?
I meant Joels, i might have spelled wrong, many different names..
I do know that a waveguid is only suited to use in a situation that has ben modelled for that particular waveguide. I have no intention in using any other waveguide than that modeled for this speaker.
Okey, i will try to refrase.
As i have a somewhat limited budget right now, i was thinking of building a "felt" version of the elsies to begin with.
I have searched and read some more and i see that that the Mk 3 version uses felt around the tweeter. I can also find info regarding the xo for that verison too.
So, is it possible for me to build the Mk 3 version, with felt to start with?
I have no problem in building a new crossover or even a new box later on, that is no problem. For that i can save some months or whatever.
So, my thought is to build a felt version now. Then, later on upgrade to a expensive Mk 5 with a real good crossover and such.
This verion would be somewhat of a budget version, felt, cheaper xo parts, etc etc.
So, the question is, the info around the lates "felt" version, which is it? Mk3 i guess?
There is no need to worry if it isn´t possible to upgrade to Mk 5 in the same box or that it uses a new crossover. My plan has almost the whole time been to build a cheaper box, with a little bit chaper xo parts as a beginning, and then later on build a REAL fine version when the funds allow it. With no cheapish parts, no budget thinking what so ever.
This is possible, right?
Joel's waveguides are very nice (have a pair), but given customs and duties it sounds like it would be quite expensive for you to import. However, with the dimensions (buried somewhere in this forum) you could make a pair yourself if you have the necessary skills and equipment. Failing that, perhaps someone is available who could make a pair for you?
While Joel's are aluminum, there are other materials such as wood that can be turned, or alternatively check out Rod Elliott's page on making waveguides at Practical DIY Waveguides - Part 1. The dimensions are not suitable, but you might find the method works well enough to allow making a Mk V and replace the waveguides with different ones at a later date.
Just a thought ....
While Joel's are aluminum, there are other materials such as wood that can be turned, or alternatively check out Rod Elliott's page on making waveguides at Practical DIY Waveguides - Part 1. The dimensions are not suitable, but you might find the method works well enough to allow making a Mk V and replace the waveguides with different ones at a later date.
Just a thought ....
Well, i think i will have a go at crating a waveguide.
When they were done in mdf, how did you do it then? CNC?
I have access to a drill lathe, and i have access to different plastics.
I have access to a full carpenter shop without a horisontal lathe. Don´t know that word but that machine you use to carve out legs to chairs and such. That machine, no access.
I can do a model in clay and then make a mold out of it and then do it in glass/carbon fibre. That does seem like a lot of work thou.
Feels like i am missing some obvius way to make it..
When they were done in mdf, how did you do it then? CNC?
I have access to a drill lathe, and i have access to different plastics.
I have access to a full carpenter shop without a horisontal lathe. Don´t know that word but that machine you use to carve out legs to chairs and such. That machine, no access.
I can do a model in clay and then make a mold out of it and then do it in glass/carbon fibre. That does seem like a lot of work thou.
Feels like i am missing some obvius way to make it..
Right now I have only 5 waveguides with 4mm mounting thickness..The machining cost more.. They're were made for My own ideas and use with a more rigid(steel) front panel where the waveguide wont be sunk and have plan for rigid panel in a Hamlet centre as well..
The cheapest shipping to sweden $25 but it doesn't come with insurance so I kind of stayed away before. So without duty it's 200 total. With the regular 18mm guide its $185 but need to get more..
May I please give more thoughts and challenges..
If you build m4 you will likely be very happy without knowing the difference but I have hundreds of dollars worth of parts laying around from past version that might never find a new home..
I'm waiting for a great 300B thats being made but have a few others here now like el84 and 6mb8 integrates.. The 6mb8 has a msrp of 899 and it's small with smaller transformers and no choke in the power supply. 6mb8 is a 6w integrated all in one tube and this amp sound really good on the Elsinore and control is very good..
m4 dosent have this ability from memory and I think a larger 8w amp would be minimal and still a bit of overhang bass unless using a bit higher power.. Then I ran 100w accuphase a lot for maximum firmness..
The improvements MK5 are HUGE and improvements are across the board..
It still amazes me that when I hear some $80k speakers I find there is something out of whack with balance and integration..
What about taking the time and putting money into machined aluminum front panel or at least the stiffest material you can come up with beyond wood.. you can use my waveguide or better yet have waveguide machined into the front panel..
Whithout the stiffness the speakers are already great and it simply increased the detail and focus but why not and it could look cool..
I guess for me Hot Rodding Elsinore Mk5 makes the most sense..
I do approve of mounting the Tweeter directly to a large mass. If you note the cabinet design, where the Tweeter is mounted is designed to be as strong as possible and as "massy" as possible. In fact, it should be the strongest part of the box. It increases focus where the wavelengths are shortest.
So how much mass does acrylic have compared to the inequivalent of aluminium? If acrylic, it is still pretty good I would think.
From an acoustic point of view, it is the shape of the Waveguide that is important, but mass is about stability. The Waveguide we came up with, if we were to change its shape, we would have to re-start the computer modelling from scratch. And it would likely work OK with a new shape - but the Crossover would have to be changed too.
I don't think I have mentioned this earlier, but the target of the design of the Waveguide was based on getting maximum "gain" at 3KHz, the targeted Crossover point, so that the smallest value series cap could be used - to make the reactance in the cap - which increases as you lower the value, keep it as high as possible. The reason is that high reactance between the amplifier's output terminals and the Tweter's VC terminals, means that the Tweeter will track the current of the amplifier, rather than the voltage. The Tweeter responds more linearly to current than it does to tracking voltage, and also generates less noise due to EMF forces (which are voltages) corrupting the current. The only other person I know who seems to take this seriously is Esa Merelainen in Finland. It just seems to go over the heads of the masses of loudspeaker designers.
Cheers, Joe R.
So how much mass does acrylic have compared to the inequivalent of aluminium? If acrylic, it is still pretty good I would think.
From an acoustic point of view, it is the shape of the Waveguide that is important, but mass is about stability. The Waveguide we came up with, if we were to change its shape, we would have to re-start the computer modelling from scratch. And it would likely work OK with a new shape - but the Crossover would have to be changed too.
I don't think I have mentioned this earlier, but the target of the design of the Waveguide was based on getting maximum "gain" at 3KHz, the targeted Crossover point, so that the smallest value series cap could be used - to make the reactance in the cap - which increases as you lower the value, keep it as high as possible. The reason is that high reactance between the amplifier's output terminals and the Tweter's VC terminals, means that the Tweeter will track the current of the amplifier, rather than the voltage. The Tweeter responds more linearly to current than it does to tracking voltage, and also generates less noise due to EMF forces (which are voltages) corrupting the current. The only other person I know who seems to take this seriously is Esa Merelainen in Finland. It just seems to go over the heads of the masses of loudspeaker designers.
Cheers, Joe R.
Hi,
I will start my project during this spring and have already realized that the nice waveguides from Joel will be to expensive to transport to Sweden. Therefore I have somewhere in my head about the same thought that You have. Lets make a mould and then use some plastic to cast them instead. what are your timeschedule?
Hi again!
There is no need to worry if it isn´t possible to upgrade to Mk 5 in the same box or that it uses a new crossover. My plan has almost the whole time been to build a cheaper box, with a little bit chaper xo parts as a beginning, and then later on build a REAL fine version when the funds allow it. With no cheapish parts, no budget thinking what so ever.
This is possible, right?
The difference in price for Mk3 and Mk5 crossover parts woul be almost none as there are not that many parts that need to be top noch. So therefore it´s just the waveguide that is the big difference. So let´s get a Pan-european" waveguide project enabling your Mk5s come to life from the beginning
That sounds like a good idea!
I am about to ask some friends/family of mine with experience in doing models, My father, He has been working with making models for 25 years at the now only existing swedish car company. So he knows how to make it, he is just quite bizzy.
I am also about to ask another close relative that is a guitar/furniture carpenter about his ideas of making a waveguide. He is also really good at these things.
If i just get at good model done, then i will have no problem making them from carbon/glass/kevlar fibre and suitable epoxi/polyester/whatever plastics.
Its the mold thats the hard thing to get done right. My father know how to do this.
But, i am going to push this a bit and see what i get for suitable ideas.
Do you have any ideas?
A clay modell is what me thinks so far, or maybe making one out of wood and then make a negative out of it.
About the crossover, i only checked the price for the mk5 xo, and it wasn´t expensive at all. Some 300 sek per speaker i think. Then it was as specified but without the Rifa cap as i didn't find any of those.
Where do you buy xo parts from?
I am about to ask some friends/family of mine with experience in doing models, My father, He has been working with making models for 25 years at the now only existing swedish car company. So he knows how to make it, he is just quite bizzy.
I am also about to ask another close relative that is a guitar/furniture carpenter about his ideas of making a waveguide. He is also really good at these things.
If i just get at good model done, then i will have no problem making them from carbon/glass/kevlar fibre and suitable epoxi/polyester/whatever plastics.
Its the mold thats the hard thing to get done right. My father know how to do this.
But, i am going to push this a bit and see what i get for suitable ideas.
Do you have any ideas?
A clay modell is what me thinks so far, or maybe making one out of wood and then make a negative out of it.
About the crossover, i only checked the price for the mk5 xo, and it wasn´t expensive at all. Some 300 sek per speaker i think. Then it was as specified but without the Rifa cap as i didn't find any of those.
Where do you buy xo parts from?
Good news. I have access to a lathe.
So, now its time to figure out a good design and make it. Then make a negative and try to make a waveguide out of some plastics.
I think maybe i should try carbonfibre out at first.
What do you guys think?
I have carbon fibre, a small amount of kevlar and lots of glassfibre available.
Epoxy and poyester do i also have. I think glassfibre is going to be too flexy and wobbly.
Carbonfibre is stiff, really stiff when done the right way, and i think it would be a good idea to use some dampening, maybe a thin sheet if bitumen moulded into it? Don´t know, just guessing.
I need your help figuring out what i should try first.
If you have the ability to do this, what would you have tried first?
If i i get a good mould done that i can stand for, then i can make some more for material cost and some labour cost.
If that is okey for you Joe? Nothing set, just exploring the options.
Could be a good idea to have the waveguides available in europe?
They wouldn´t be too heavy either so shipping shouldn´t be too much.
How do you think it should look like? I like the round shape. Fits with the drivers. Could make it the same shape as the 830875 drivers? How thick flange? 5mm should be sufficient i think. 10mm is possible too but then the weight and cost will rise. No probem when done for just me as the material is free for me, already paid for.
Lots of ideas to try out, fun
sharkythefrog, can you pm me swith your email?
I am about to order drivers from the netherlands, all drivers incl shipping is 4,700 sek. If we do it together i am almost certain it would be cheaper, they give discount for 10 drivers so they probably give discount for 20 too.
Just a idea. But i am going to order them very soon as i need a tweet flange to make a mould done.
So, now its time to figure out a good design and make it. Then make a negative and try to make a waveguide out of some plastics.
I think maybe i should try carbonfibre out at first.
What do you guys think?
I have carbon fibre, a small amount of kevlar and lots of glassfibre available.
Epoxy and poyester do i also have. I think glassfibre is going to be too flexy and wobbly.
Carbonfibre is stiff, really stiff when done the right way, and i think it would be a good idea to use some dampening, maybe a thin sheet if bitumen moulded into it? Don´t know, just guessing.
I need your help figuring out what i should try first.
If you have the ability to do this, what would you have tried first?
If i i get a good mould done that i can stand for, then i can make some more for material cost and some labour cost.
If that is okey for you Joe? Nothing set, just exploring the options.
Could be a good idea to have the waveguides available in europe?
They wouldn´t be too heavy either so shipping shouldn´t be too much.
How do you think it should look like? I like the round shape. Fits with the drivers. Could make it the same shape as the 830875 drivers? How thick flange? 5mm should be sufficient i think. 10mm is possible too but then the weight and cost will rise. No probem when done for just me as the material is free for me, already paid for.
Lots of ideas to try out, fun
sharkythefrog, can you pm me swith your email?
I am about to order drivers from the netherlands, all drivers incl shipping is 4,700 sek. If we do it together i am almost certain it would be cheaper, they give discount for 10 drivers so they probably give discount for 20 too.
Just a idea. But i am going to order them very soon as i need a tweet flange to make a mould done.
Pascual, Dondiba,
We are a few i Sweden that will try to put together some Elsinores. Approx costs: Elements €520, filters €100, damping - not found yet, cabinett - could be whatever - but raw cabinets €100. We also try to bring a European version of the waveguide to life as the cross atlantic hipping cost is not at all fun. Pascual - where did you find the correct damping?
We are a few i Sweden that will try to put together some Elsinores. Approx costs: Elements €520, filters €100, damping - not found yet, cabinett - could be whatever - but raw cabinets €100. We also try to bring a European version of the waveguide to life as the cross atlantic hipping cost is not at all fun. Pascual - where did you find the correct damping?
Hi everybody,
I've haven't build the Elsinore yet but the Nomex 164, you can have a look at my blog, there is a section concerning the costs.
Construction d'enceintes "Nomex 164" - Le blog de pguerin
I think building the Elsinore under 1000 € would not be easy, I mean including ALL parts.
About the waveguide, I already own a pair from joels.
I've haven't build the Elsinore yet but the Nomex 164, you can have a look at my blog, there is a section concerning the costs.
Construction d'enceintes "Nomex 164" - Le blog de pguerin
I think building the Elsinore under 1000 € would not be easy, I mean including ALL parts.
About the waveguide, I already own a pair from joels.