I asked you this because I think the MK1 has the best FR, but the MK3 is easier to build. So if I can conbine the 2 pros.
What is the implication of using the vifa instead of HDS in MK3 desing on frequency response? Did you ever tried this combo, or even just simulated?
You guys, who have build the laudspeaker, how long did it take?
thank you very much
What is the implication of using the vifa instead of HDS in MK3 desing on frequency response? Did you ever tried this combo, or even just simulated?
You guys, who have build the laudspeaker, how long did it take?
thank you very much
nitronori said:
Pleased to hear that you are contemplating building the Elsinores. I suppose how long it takes depends on how critical you are, a slightly rough looking box construction would no doubt not take as long to build. But they are not beyond a reasonably good handyman. I am no particular wizard in that department, so if I can do it, just about anybody motivated can do it.
Re Tweeter: May I be so blunt (but no iron fist in a velvet glove) as to say that your reasoning is entirely false. Whereas the XT25 Tweeter has the best ON axis response, which is only gettable of an ideal baffle, its OFF axis response is much weaker than the HDS. In fact, the HDS top octave response at the near ideal listening angle of 15 degrees (which is what the Elsinores are designed for), the FR of the HDS is way better than the XT25 and that will apply to most "real world" baffles. Neither are perfect.
Beyond FR, the HDS is so superior to the XT25 is every way, lower distortion being the most dominant quality, and this is very very audible. The Elsinore design demands a lot from the Tweeter, especially in the 1.5Khz to 3KHz range, here it handles the "heat in the kitchen" much better than the XT25.
Go for the HDS, you won't regret it. It is a world class Tweeter at a bargain price, the XT25 is not.
Joe R.
I'm not convinced of the FR above 12khz. Still offaxis there's too much exaltation, that can cause harsh sound and could make the speaker not versatile too all musical material.
This can be partially solved by a correction circuit: wich I'm working, because before 10khz is almost perfect.
But looking at the old MK1 measurment, the mk1 has the most desirable FR, also offaxis is not bad( maybe I would lessen a bit the R3 value if one want to listen off axis). But generally in the 8khz-16khz region is desirable a descending response.
In my opinion the FR of the speaker is very very important( also less than 1db is audible). After that it comes phase coherence. Narutally if there isn't an evident distortion.
In the end I think I'm going to build the "genuine MK3" version with HDS. Because If I put the vifa in the mk3 I don't where I'm going in the FR, I don't leave the certain for uncertain.
Thank you
This can be partially solved by a correction circuit: wich I'm working, because before 10khz is almost perfect.
But looking at the old MK1 measurment, the mk1 has the most desirable FR, also offaxis is not bad( maybe I would lessen a bit the R3 value if one want to listen off axis). But generally in the 8khz-16khz region is desirable a descending response.
In my opinion the FR of the speaker is very very important( also less than 1db is audible). After that it comes phase coherence. Narutally if there isn't an evident distortion.
In the end I think I'm going to build the "genuine MK3" version with HDS. Because If I put the vifa in the mk3 I don't where I'm going in the FR, I don't leave the certain for uncertain.
Thank you
The XT25 and HDS are totally different sounding tweeters, regardless of whether it's apparent in the frequency response or not. The XT25 is NOT the flattest when you look at power response. This and the totally different dome geometries make for very different subjective presentation, and the HDS is quite superior in this regard.
A single on axis frequency response tells very little about how a tweeter will sound.
A single on axis frequency response tells very little about how a tweeter will sound.
nitronori said:
I forgot to mention a major reason to go with the HDS is that it is 8 Ohm - keep in mind that this is 1st order and that the single series cap in series with series R and the tweeter's Z means that as it descends toward the crossover frequency in the upper midrange, it starts to draw significant negative current. This is typical of 1st order high-pass. The 8 Ohm HDS will draw less than half negative current compared to the XT25.
This is Mk1 with XT25:
This is Mk3 with HDS:
Not only is the Z much flatter (good for tube amps) but the HDS phase angle is only -20 degress @ 2KHz and Z over 8 Ohm which never drops down to zero (this qualifies as an easy 8 Ohm load nominally). The Mark 1 with XT25 drops to -50 degrees @ just under 2KHz. The Z drops to just above 4 Ohm - this does NOT qualify as an 8 Ohm rated speaker (where Z must not drop below 5.65 Ohm).
So I think you are wise to go with the HDS. No matter what, your ears will appreciate it.
Joe R.
nitronori said:
I honestly do not know, I didn't wind them. But L3 can have very high DC resistance and then reduce R2 accordingly. But the one I used were about 0.25R if memory serves me right. L4 needs to be a good size choke and be as low as possible, less than 0.5R is recommended and go below that if you can.
So L3 is not critical but L4 is!
Joe R.
Joe,
That 830875 has a damn smooth response!
http://www.tymphany.com/datasheet/printview.php?id=12
How much are they here in Oz?
That 830875 has a damn smooth response!
http://www.tymphany.com/datasheet/printview.php?id=12
How much are they here in Oz?
otto88 said:
It's a honey and sounds as smooth as it looks.
I buy minimum qty of ten plus at a time and direct from the importer here in Sydney - cannot disclose. But www.speakerbits.com sells them for A$93.13 out of Melbourne, call Tom Mannning. That's quite reasonable, maybe he will discount for eight?
www.speakerbits.com/Default.aspx?menupage=150&pi=2 scroll down at bit over half way.
# Speakerbits
# Unit F51 / 63 Turner Street
# Port Melbourne VIC 3207
#
# Phone: +61(0)3 9647 7000
# Fax: +61 (0)3 9681 8207
Joe R.
I forgot, for L5 do you suggest a ferrite core coil or air core coil?
Since I have to buy them, ther's 1/2 euros difference beetween the two, not so much... In commercial speaker I've seen always ferrite core coil, but air one should produce less distortion. DCR here isn't critical right, could be as high as 1ohm.
C4 could be a bipolar cap like in C3?
For R3 I want to use a wirewound not inductive resitor, 6w rating is enough here?
For the rest of resistors Metal oxide 10W.
thank you
Since I have to buy them, ther's 1/2 euros difference beetween the two, not so much... In commercial speaker I've seen always ferrite core coil, but air one should produce less distortion. DCR here isn't critical right, could be as high as 1ohm.
C4 could be a bipolar cap like in C3?
For R3 I want to use a wirewound not inductive resitor, 6w rating is enough here?
For the rest of resistors Metal oxide 10W.
thank you
nitronori said:
The L5 is part of the Conjugate Filter and in series with R4 (22R) so saturation is highly unlikely, so using a decent ferrite core should be no problem.
I use a BiPolar for C3 - in this case not detrimental to the performance. There are of course instances where they should be avoided like the plague, but I use TWO BiPolars in the Elsinores where they do a job that lowers distortion and actually makes for better sound.
Re resistors, I use 5W Dales non-inductive wirewound myself, more than adequate.
Joe R.
Help with 90mm vent in US
I got my drivers and I'm planning box construction. That brought up the question of vent size. The above does not talk about inside of outside diameter. Since Joe specified a 90 mm hole I'm looking for a pipe/tube with OD 3.5 inches; probably 3" ID. Is this correct?
I have not been able to find a supplier with 3.5" OD PVC pipe - could any of you guys in the US point me in the right direction?
Thanks,
Francois
PS. Are there any Elsinore builders in the US? Please drop me email.
Joe Rasmussen said:
I got my drivers and I'm planning box construction. That brought up the question of vent size. The above does not talk about inside of outside diameter. Since Joe specified a 90 mm hole I'm looking for a pipe/tube with OD 3.5 inches; probably 3" ID. Is this correct?
I have not been able to find a supplier with 3.5" OD PVC pipe - could any of you guys in the US point me in the right direction?
Thanks,
Francois
PS. Are there any Elsinore builders in the US? Please drop me email.
Re: Help with 90mm vent in US
I think I got it! I need to buy a 3" pipe since PVC pipes are apparently specified by ID not OD. But then Joe wrote that 3" pipe may be too small in the quote above. It seems that 3" pipes have an OD of about 87mm. Is a 3" ID pipe a good to substitute for the pipe in the 90 mm hole Joe had intended?
I can buy 3" pipes at several places - sorry for the bother.
Thanks,
Francois
Francois G said:
I think I got it! I need to buy a 3" pipe since PVC pipes are apparently specified by ID not OD. But then Joe wrote that 3" pipe may be too small in the quote above. It seems that 3" pipes have an OD of about 87mm. Is a 3" ID pipe a good to substitute for the pipe in the 90 mm hole Joe had intended?
I can buy 3" pipes at several places - sorry for the bother.
Thanks,
Francois
Re: Re: Help with 90mm vent in US
Hi Francois
Needless to say it is the inside diameter that is the important factor. The required length of the vent changes accordingly to maintain the same Fb. So here are the figures, use as a guide:
Internal Dimension = Vent Length:
90mm = 88mm - OK
87mm outside = 80mm - OK
85mm = 75mm - OK
82.5 = 69mm - Borderline
80mm = 63mm - TOO SHORT
77.5mm = 57mm - TOO SHORT
75mm = 52mm - TOO SHORT
What concerns me the most by those lengths is that 52mm for an inside diameter of 75mm means that the vent does not finish far enough into the box and hence the area in front of the internal main brace. Because of this I would not like to use any less than just over 82mm inside diameter.
The other consideration is the peak velocity in the vent should be kept under 0.1 Mach (velocity) @ Fb for a reasonable rated SPL. The larger the diameter the greater the SPL before 0.1 Mach is reached.
ALTERNATIVE:
You could use postal tubes from you local post office. These are usually cardboard - but I have used them. A good idea is to use something to coat them - even just white wood glue that dries clear - to stiffen them further and protect them from any possible air moisture. If the right PVC pipe is not available, this will do the job at a pinch.
Joe R.
Francois G said:
Hi Francois
Needless to say it is the inside diameter that is the important factor. The required length of the vent changes accordingly to maintain the same Fb. So here are the figures, use as a guide:
Internal Dimension = Vent Length:
90mm = 88mm - OK
87mm outside = 80mm - OK
85mm = 75mm - OK
82.5 = 69mm - Borderline
80mm = 63mm - TOO SHORT
77.5mm = 57mm - TOO SHORT
75mm = 52mm - TOO SHORT
What concerns me the most by those lengths is that 52mm for an inside diameter of 75mm means that the vent does not finish far enough into the box and hence the area in front of the internal main brace. Because of this I would not like to use any less than just over 82mm inside diameter.
The other consideration is the peak velocity in the vent should be kept under 0.1 Mach (velocity) @ Fb for a reasonable rated SPL. The larger the diameter the greater the SPL before 0.1 Mach is reached.
ALTERNATIVE:
You could use postal tubes from you local post office. These are usually cardboard - but I have used them. A good idea is to use something to coat them - even just white wood glue that dries clear - to stiffen them further and protect them from any possible air moisture. If the right PVC pipe is not available, this will do the job at a pinch.
Joe R.
I must say, out of all the speakers I've seen so far within the affordable range whether diy or commercial, this is one of the most beautiful and meanest looking floor stander!!
Needless to say, this made me join the site So I have a few questions from a newb interested in this project as I love to make my own:
1) Is there a room size recommendation for these monsters?
2) Is there any special receiver requirement to push the speakers? ( I would be working off a Yamaha 3800)
3) Will this design work for low volume levels in HT use at night time (obviously made for ******* your neighbors off hehe)
Coming from the US, has anyone been able to come up with a complete and comparable parts list in the US to build the crossovers? I know madisound has the speakers...
Please forgive me if this has been answered someplace else in the thread. Too many pages to weed through with tons of info at work.
Needless to say, this made me join the site
So I have a few questions from a newb interested in this project as I love to make my own:1) Is there a room size recommendation for these monsters?
2) Is there any special receiver requirement to push the speakers? ( I would be working off a Yamaha 3800)
3) Will this design work for low volume levels in HT use at night time (obviously made for ******* your neighbors off hehe
)Coming from the US, has anyone been able to come up with a complete and comparable parts list in the US to build the crossovers? I know madisound has the speakers...
Please forgive me if this has been answered someplace else in the thread. Too many pages to weed through with tons of info at work.
I can help with the easy questions.
I have run mine off 18 watt valve amps to a more than comfortable long term listening level, and Joe uses valve amps all the time. I'm pretty sure your Yammy has over 100 watts per channel and will do it standing on it's head, without breaking a sweat and give you irreparable hearing damage in no time .
You obviously haven't read the Elsinore part of Joe's website from front to back then if you consider this a long thread
I have run mine off 18 watt valve amps to a more than comfortable long term listening level, and Joe uses valve amps all the time. I'm pretty sure your Yammy has over 100 watts per channel and will do it standing on it's head, without breaking a sweat and give you irreparable hearing damage in no time
.I quite often listen at night with my son asleep in the next room, so down around 80 dB range. They do everything at low volumes that they do at stupid volumes. No need to turn them up to wait for the bass to catch up, so to speak. Of course you don't "feel" the sound like you do when the volume is turned up.3) Will this design work for low volume levels in HT use at night time (obviously made for ******* your neighbours off hehe
You obviously haven't read the Elsinore part of Joe's website from front to back then if you consider this a long thread