Indeed correct.
The pulses (in time) line up in such a way the the Tweeter's acoustic phase becomes inverted from its electrical phase.
I note that Lipinski Sound L-707 Monitor speakers also does this. Whether Lipinski does not by coincidence or by design, I am not sure, but I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt and say that it does not look like a coincidence.
It surprises me that more designers are not doing it this way - if you do use the Tweeter in the same electrical phase, then lining it up in time becomes harrowingly difficult and also means that you have to accept a 90 degree phase shift at the crossover point, narrow window of focus at the listener's position, off axis response that is only partially filled in and affects the overall power response, sums at -3dB when it should sum at -6dB and that means a lot more distortion where a dome Tweeter produces most distortion. (Waveguide reduces distortion even more provided you resist the temptation to lower the Crossover frequency).
BTW, the Lenehan ML2 speakers we were listening to at Southport is the same Tweeter, but no Waveguide. Guess what, Michael Lenehan (for others who may not know Michael Lenehan's work, see Lenehan Audio) also reverses the phase because he knows that not summing at -6dB is simply not acceptable and he is extremely cogniscient of getting it right off axis and you just can't do that unless you reverse the electrical phase.
Dome Tweeters want to behave this way, more people need to realise that dome Tweeters want to be used as acoustic inverters and when you do, it does more right than wrong.
But as mentioned above, if you want to delve deeper: The Renegade Tweeter Theory
Cheers, Joe
PS: Just noted that Lapinski claims: An acoustic, rather than an electronic, time-coherence of tweeters. BINGO !!!
He knows.
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Thanks Joe, I think I'll go with the PVC pipe at 70mm as i can source that easily from a hardware store.
That makes sense. I noticed that when I was listening to Mike's and your speakers, as the listening positions were not ideal when you have 10 guys in a small room listening yet the sound stage was fantasic.
Indeed correct.
The pulses (in time) line up in such a way the the Tweeter's acoustic phase becomes inverted from its electrical phase.
I note that Lipinski Sound L-707 Monitor speakers also does this. Whether Lipinski does not by coincidence or by design, I am not sure, but I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt and say that it does not look like a coincidence.
It surprises me that more designers are not doing it this way - if you do use the Tweeter in the same electrical phase, then lining it up in time becomes harrowingly difficult and also means that you have to accept a 90 degree phase shift at the crossover point, narrow window of focus at the listener's position, off axis response that is only partially filled in and affects the overall power response, sums at -3dB when it should sum at -6dB and that means a lot more distortion where a dome Tweeter produces most distortion. (Waveguide reduces distortion even more provided you resist the temptation to lower the Crossover frequency).
BTW, the Lenehan ML2 speakers we were listening to at Southport is the same Tweeter, but no Waveguide. Guess what, Michael Lenehan (for others who may not know Michael Lenehan's work, see Lenehan Audio) also reverses the phase because he knows that not summing at -6dB is simply not acceptable and he is extremely cogniscient of getting it right off axis and you just can't do that unless you reverse the electrical phase.
Dome Tweeters want to behave this way, more people need to realise that dome Tweeters want to be used as acoustic inverters and when you do, it does more right than wrong.
But as mentioned above, if you want to delve deeper: The Renegade Tweeter Theory
Cheers, Joe
PS: Just noted that Lapinski claims: An acoustic, rather than an electronic, time-coherence of tweeters. BINGO !!!
He knows.
.
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WAVEGUIDES NOW IN STOCK AND READY TO SHIP.
SEE PRICES BELOW:
INTRODUCTORY PRICES: UNTIL END OF JANUARY:
1 Single [1] for Centre Channel AUD $110 - Flat Rate to Anywhere in the World.
1 Pair [2] for Stereo AUD $150 - Flat Rate to Anywhere in the World. Expected to be most common order.
1 Set of [3] for Stereo and Centre Channel AUD $190 - Flat Rate to Anywhere in the World.
Other quantities, please make inquiries.
Outside Australia, all sent by Air Parcel and marked as DIY Components and declared as $50.
Payment via PayPal address: joeras@vacuumstate.com
Prices includes everything, PayPal Fees, Air Rates etc.
Prices from February 1st 2015 will be about 30% higher. In order to help out with the very large amount of money that was invested (big money, many of thousands of dollars has been invested), early orders will be seen in a facourable light.
Please note, this Waveguide, with a bit of DIY nous, would also be able to be adapted and could be used with other 25-26mm Dome Tweeters. Indeed the existing mounting holes for the Tweeter mount could be filled in with black silicone and then from the Rear of the Waveguide, holes could be drilled up to less than 18mm deep and tapped out, to suit many other Tweeters and their mounting. Some shaping of the throat by either sand-papering away (thankfully, the HDS Tweeter has a deep bevel) or adding Blue Tack as filler, if there is a small gap in the throat part. With a bit of effort and it can me made to work in a wide range of situations.
START ORDERING - ORDERS WILL BE SENT ASAP AND USUALLY WITHIN 24 HOURS.
Cheers, Joe
.
WAVEGUIDES NOW IN STOCK AND READY TO SHIP.
SEE PRICES BELOW:
INTRODUCTORY PRICES: UNTIL END OF JANUARY:
1 Single [1] for Centre Channel AUD $110 - Flat Rate to Anywhere in the World.
1 Pair [2] for Stereo AUD $150 - Flat Rate to Anywhere in the World. Expected to be most common order.
1 Set of [3] for Stereo and Centre Channel AUD $190 - Flat Rate to Anywhere in the World.
Other quantities, please make inquiries.
Outside Australia, all sent by Air Parcel and marked as DIY Components and declared as $50.
Payment via PayPal address: joeras@vacuumstate.com
Prices includes everything, PayPal Fees, Air Rates etc.
Prices from February 1st 2015 will be about 30% higher. In order to help out with the very large amount of money that was invested (big money, many of thousands of dollars has been invested), early orders will be seen in a facourable light.
Please note, this Waveguide, with a bit of DIY nous, would also be able to be adapted and could be used with other 25-26mm Dome Tweeters. Indeed the existing mounting holes for the Tweeter mount could be filled in with black silicone and then from the Rear of the Waveguide, holes could be drilled up to less than 18mm deep and tapped out, to suit many other Tweeters and their mounting. Some shaping of the throat by either sand-papering away (thankfully, the HDS Tweeter has a deep bevel) or adding Blue Tack as filler, if there is a small gap in the throat part. With a bit of effort and it can me made to work in a wide range of situations.
START ORDERING - ORDERS WILL BE SENT ASAP AND USUALLY WITHIN 24 HOURS.
Cheers, Joe
.
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Joe, do you have meassurements we can se for off axis responces on this wave guid? How come it is now made very shallow like others using wave guids on domes today? Yours is more what i would thisk of as a horn by look?
I would love to hear this speaker some times it looks really well made and designed.
I would love to hear this speaker some times it looks really well made and designed.
DID YOU CLICK ON THE IMAGE TO ENLARGE IT - IT LOOKS "FLAT" IF YOU DON'T ???
CLICK ON IT TO ENLARGE.
The measurements were published in November here in post # 1868 - but I will post here again - again click on the image to enlarge:
Red: On axis.
Green: 15 degrees off axis.
Blue: 30 degrees off axis.
Please note that the rise below 10KHz is a characteristics of a Waveguide. This is equalised flat by using a much smaller value series coupling cap - like 1.8uF instead of typically 4.7uF to 6.8uF. This makes the current delivery also much cleaner (the Tweeter's will respond to current rather than voltage because of the much higher series reactance) and much higher power handling and a major reduction in distortion.
Re the Waveguides, successful Waveguides have been made as shallow as 12mm by Robert C. White - read this link - Robert's Waveguide.
The Waveguide here is nearly twice as deep.
The Waveguide also creates a physical offset (the distance/depth difference between the drivers) that suits most drivers and particularly 6.5" drivers. This will line up the drivers in time - and using the type of Crossover used in the Elsinores, the pulses in time line up rather than any notional "acoustic centres", which is very difficult; but measured time impulse response never lies and "acoustic centres" is a very rubbery concept.
There are basically two kinds of Waveguides, the shallower conical type we have here and the Geddes flared/contoured Waveguide (in conjunction with a compression driver) which has extremely complex maths in order to avoid "High Order Modes" which is the cause of that cupped horn sound. A shallow conical Waveguide avoids HOMs by the simple fact that any reflection is almost certainly outwards because one side of the Waveguide is perpendicular to the opposite side - rather complicated way of saying that that 45/90 degree angle makes those across the mouth virtually impossible.
Cheers, Joe
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Thanks for the explanation Joe. But I still feel the most waveguids seen today have a bigger opening, than 90 degrees, that was what i was trying to tell, but my english was probably to limited . From the meassurings I am supprised how well it loads at lower frequences. It seems very well made.
Reading about you results on phase/impulse correct filters. I have a question. Does the midwoofer have to be completely without lowpass filet or can there be a 1 order filter, and it will still meet the phase shifted tweeter well?
. From the meassurings I am supprised how well it loads at lower frequences. It seems very well made.Reading about you results on phase/impulse correct filters. I have a question. Does the midwoofer have to be completely without lowpass filet or can there be a 1 order filter, and it will still meet the phase shifted tweeter well?
You have actually answered your own question. All I can say is that the Waveguide is optimum (not perfect as no such thing) for the Tweeter we are using of gives me the offset/stagger I need. Look at the 15 degrees off axis response - Waveguides are never really at their best bang on axis, because all the circular 'rings' will show up a discreet frequencies and smooth out a bit off axis.
LOOK AT THE GREEN RESPONSE BELOW - 15 DEGREES THE SMOOTHEST:
That loading at lower frequencies is very important in this context - better power handling, lower distortion, and the lower value capacitor means that cap has much higher reactance and hence tracks current (rather than voltage). Much of what the Elsinores does, and this I believe is very different from what other designers do, keeps an eye on current as much (and perhaps more) than voltage. This means being willing to change one's priorities and accept 'imperfections' in the conventional sense while achieving something that is much more important. The temptation to design speakers from a voltage/phase perspective is high, because it is just easier to see problems, but it also hides others.
This emphasis on current rather than voltage leads to a loudspeaker design with a much lower noise floor - and bring that subject or phrase up with loudspeaker designers and the will say "huh, noise floor in speakers?" Very strange words indeed.
Yet some designers have tweaked onto this, like Dave Wilson has (and many reviewers have said they have heard an improved clarity is his later designs, true evidence of a lower noise floor, and Wilson has called his new Crossover Anti-Jitter. Jitter is noise and heaps of cone speakers suffers badly from jitter - and it has to do with not understanding that current delivery into the drivers has to be very clean or else clarity goes down and often replaced with a false boring homogenised smoothness (mistakenly praised too often). The imaging suffers greatly and dynamic shading, those two are very much intertwined as the 'blacks' in the music is what separates instrument spaces, allows us to hear delays that seems to come from location other than the speaker. Hence imaging and sound stage dimensions suffer.
Hers in Sydney, a new research project is about to start, this will specifically be looking at AC current delivery into resonant motor systems - something that has not been done before. I believe this will prove to be very important - shining a light into a corner that has not been done before.
Not sure if I understand the question. I am using a 1st order filter on the Midwoofer(s). It certainly does line up phase wise with the Tweeter. Mind you, a low-pass filter on a Midwoofer maybe 1st order electrically, but a Midwoofer beams near the Crossover and off axis will not be 1st order. Many 3rd order Crossovers are labelled by their designer as acoustically 4th order and so on. Don't get me wrong, I do believe in 1st order, just not so blindly, if you know what I mean. Look at the 'minimum phase' measurement, and that will tell you whether the behaviour is right for a 1st order Crossover, and it should be 'minimum phase' both on and off axis - then you are OK.
BTW, what part of DK are you in?
Cheers, Joe
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Exciting project to understand current delivery into resonant systems. Loudspeakers are as resonant as can be.
The reason for asking about filters on the woofer meeting the tweeter, is because I have read you "Joe Rasmussen Approach to crossovers" and under the headline "Adapt or Perish" I got the impression that the woofer had to be without a lowpass filter, just use a LCR filter to remove the very common peak before rolloff on the woofer.
But as I understand you, It can be loworder filteres just keep an eye on the minimum phase. there must not be any quick changes in it.
By the way you convertion of the El34 to triode, and the HF-circuit you using for better the push-pull output transformers are other subjects I find very interesting.
I come from Jutland, from the middel/western part of Denmark. From the town of Herning.
Cheers Allan.
The reason for asking about filters on the woofer meeting the tweeter, is because I have read you "Joe Rasmussen Approach to crossovers" and under the headline "Adapt or Perish" I got the impression that the woofer had to be without a lowpass filter, just use a LCR filter to remove the very common peak before rolloff on the woofer.
But as I understand you, It can be loworder filteres just keep an eye on the minimum phase. there must not be any quick changes in it.
By the way you convertion of the El34 to triode, and the HF-circuit you using for better the push-pull output transformers are other subjects I find very interesting.
I come from Jutland, from the middel/western part of Denmark. From the town of Herning.
Cheers Allan.
Hi Joe,
I like to have 3 pairs sent to me. Does 3 pair in the same shipping favor the totalt price (cheaper shipping etc)?
As there seem to be at least one more pair going to northern EU (Denmark) it might be even a good idea to sent them all to one address to lower the shipping?
cheers
//H
OK on that.
I am away fishing, back on Wednesday. I can weigh and calculate air mail for three pairs then.
Cheers, Joe
Back in the saddle. Looked at the freight and only saves $25 AUD, but in this instance I will take off $50, so the total for 3 pairs (6 in total) will be $400 AUD. Just pay via PayPal joeras@vacuumstate.com and I will send within 24 hours. Usually PayPal will also indicate an address, if not that one, just email me the same joeras@vacuumstate.com the address you want it sent to.
Cheers, Joe
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For sale: drivers and waveguide for Elsinore
Guys,
Since it has become clear that I won't be able to build the Elsinores after all (lack of time and carpenter skills), I am hoping that someone is interested in buying following items for his own build:
- 8 pieces Peerless Drivers
- 2 pieces discovery tweeters
- 2 pieces high quality aluminium silver binding post plates fitted with WBT binding posts (2 x red plus 2 x black)
- 2 of Joels waveguides. The tweeters are already mounted to the WGs perfectly aligned and would be ready to be mounted in the cabinets.
All of the above are unused in the original boxes. To build the speakers one needs only to buy the crossover parts and build the boxes.
As I am in Holland, this offer would be most interesting for someone in my area. I know I've paid more than EUR 800,-- for the lot.
Please send my a pm if you are interested.
Guys,
Since it has become clear that I won't be able to build the Elsinores after all (lack of time and carpenter skills), I am hoping that someone is interested in buying following items for his own build:
- 8 pieces Peerless Drivers
- 2 pieces discovery tweeters
- 2 pieces high quality aluminium silver binding post plates fitted with WBT binding posts (2 x red plus 2 x black)
- 2 of Joels waveguides. The tweeters are already mounted to the WGs perfectly aligned and would be ready to be mounted in the cabinets.
All of the above are unused in the original boxes. To build the speakers one needs only to buy the crossover parts and build the boxes.
As I am in Holland, this offer would be most interesting for someone in my area. I know I've paid more than EUR 800,-- for the lot.
Please send my a pm if you are interested.
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It looks like I have another Elsinore convert. He is a good friend of mine who is also a carpenter and builds Tasmanian blackwood cabinets so I can't wait to see the finished product. So there should shortly be an order for another pair of your lovely waveguides. I will be building his crossovers so I will do a new pcb artwork which properly takes inductor placement into consideration. (didn't get that right the first time, live and learn). I have physically modified mine but they are bit untidy and a new pcb will tidy things up. It will be good to do a comparison as his will have the new midwoofers wheras mine have the Peerless HDS ones. On another topic I've just bought a Monarchy SM70 Pro class A amplifier. What a revelation! The Elsinores are a perfect match being very efficient as the amp is only 25W per channel but drives them to ear shattering levels if one is silly enough. The sound is just so much more revealing and detailed. One happy camper.
I have received some inquiries, and want to express that I only want to sell the items together. Also, I may not have been clear that I will accept any reasonable offer.
I am not sure if prices have risen/fallen since I bought, but my current offering would be:
- 8 pieces of Peerless 830875 Nomex
- 2 pieces of ScanSpeak Discovery D2608/9130 HDS Tweeter (already mounted to the WGs, see below).
- 2 pieces of Joel's waveguides
Price is EUR 500,-- plus shipping. I hope this might be an interesting offer for prospective builders.
On another topic I've just bought a Monarchy SM70 Pro class A amplifier. What a revelation! The Elsinores are a perfect match being very efficient as the amp is only 25W per channel but drives them to ear shattering levels if one is silly enough. The sound is just so much more revealing and detailed. One happy camper.
I also find it impressive how well the Elsinore responds to higher quality electronics. I have been running a First Watt F5 clone that I built to deliver more current than a standard F5. This keeps the amp in Class A throughout the entire range of power that it can deliver. The sound is wonderfully detailed and full with plenty of dynamics and volume.