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Old 24th March 2009, 03:32 PM   #441
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Rasmussen


Note that the Tweeter gets its own amplifier. As this is a 2 1/2 Way system, all 6.5" drivers sees same large amplitude at low frequencies, so in this case is the correct way to "Bi-Wire."

In conventional 3-Ways, I would connect the Midrange and Tweeter legs of the crossover together and the high amplitude Bass on its own. So you can see there is a difference between 3-Way and 2 1/2 Way systems.


Joe R.

Joe, I must be missing something - please help me understand (for me a theoretical question since I'm building my Elsinores exactly as published).

If one plans to use a 3-way electronic cross-over and have a surplus of amplifiers why could one not drive the top and bottom pairs of the 6.5" mid/bass separately. I understand the impedances might be less ideal compared to driving them all together and that it would require fideling with the filter slopes, etc., to get the voicing right.
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Old 25th March 2009, 12:39 AM   #442
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Quote:
Originally posted by Francois G



Joe, I must be missing something - please help me understand (for me a theoretical question since I'm building my Elsinores exactly as published).

If one plans to use a 3-way electronic cross-over and have a surplus of amplifiers why could one not drive the top and bottom pairs of the 6.5" mid/bass separately. I understand the impedances might be less ideal compared to driving them all together and that it would require fideling with the filter slopes, etc., to get the voicing right.
I know Bi-Wiring, Bi-Amping and electronic crossovers etc can be a bit confusing as there are a lot of variables.

To keep it simple for now, the Elsinores with Passive Crossover can easily be Bi-Wired, with a single amp. This is what I do pretty much all the time.

When Bi-Wiring a 2 1/2 Way, then connect Mid (which also carries Bass content) together with Bass - wire them together. The Tweeter get its own wire. IF Bi-Wiring a 3-Way (not the Elsinores) then the Mid (no Bass content) and Tweeter should be wired together and the Bass on its own. See the pattern?

If TRI-Wiring, then 3-Way and 2 1/2-Way wiring is the same.

Now what about MULTIPLE amplifiers. This is a different kettle of fish. TRI-Amping needs three amps and is the same for 3-Way and 2 1/2-Way.

If Bi-Amping, I would use the same rules as above for Bi-Wiring.

Now electronic crossovers - oh boy, where do I start? Here I would need more specific info as to what you have in mind. Mind you, and this will surprise some, there are some things that Passive Crossovers can in some ways do better than electronic crossovers - it's not just one or the other. In the Elsinores I would use a mix of passive and active plus multiple amps. But the variables are many.

But I think we can agree that what you are doing now is the best thing. Get them going pasively and then we can go through the options then. There will be quite a few I suspect.

I do note that mixing active, multiple amps and passive crossovers are a lot more common these days. Step by step we can see what you can do as well and I'll try to help you along. But we should be able to employ some of those spare amps you have.

Joe R.
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Old 30th March 2009, 04:56 AM   #443
rob323 is offline rob323  Australia
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So far, my efforts to make my Elsinores active have been more trouble than it's been worth. My DEQX is just not 2.5way friendly and is so far only being used for preamp and room correction duties.
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Old 30th March 2009, 05:12 AM   #444
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Quote:
Originally posted by rob323
So far, my efforts to make my Elsinores active have been more trouble than it's been worth.
Yeah Rob. But it looks good, real good!


Quote:
My DEQX is just not 2.5way friendly and is so far only being used for preamp and room correction duties.

And I've suspected this might be the case. In which case that should apply to other similar types? This is an area I don't really have enough expertise (a man has got to know his limitations).

Re HAMLET:

Not this week, but hopefully next, I will post the provisionary crossover for the Hamlet Project" - it will stay that way until I get my hands on a physical box with drivers.

Rob, any idea if and when that could happen? I think you remain the person nearest here. You will get honourary mention as a "collaborator" - that's a promise.

No, truly!

Joe R.
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Old 30th March 2009, 06:05 AM   #445
rob323 is offline rob323  Australia
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Originally posted by Joe Rasmussen
And I've suspected this might be the case. In which case that should apply to other similar types? This is an area I don't really have enough expertise (a man has got to know his limitations).
My only real option with the Deqx, without sacrificing the superb efficiency of the setup in it's passive form, is to run it as a two way. Tweeters on one amp and mids and woofers on another, leaving the crossover in the mix for the woofers.
If you can get a 3 way active crossover that doesn't mind sending the bass frequencies to the mids as well as the bass, then it could work but I suspect you would need some equalisation as the woofer crossover slope might be steeper than the ideal baffle step slope.(Does that make sense??)

Quote:
Rob, any idea if and when that could happen? I think you remain the person nearest here.
No idea yet Joe, sorry. It WILL happen, but I will be out sleeping in my shed if I start another speaker project before finishing some other SPL (spouse priority list) projects first. Mid year is the plan atm.

Cheers,
Rob.
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Old 31st March 2009, 04:26 PM   #446
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That is a good looking trick Joe. No passive XOs in my system at the moment, so i won't be a 1st guinea pig (but you wouldn't be siggesting it is you didn't know what to expect )

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Old 31st March 2009, 08:55 PM   #447
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Its quite old
Also effectively used with polarised caps
Never payed it much attention though
Maybe I should have

Nice explanation
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Old 31st March 2009, 09:01 PM   #448
Salas is offline Salas  Greece
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Old 1st April 2009, 03:24 AM   #449
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Quote:
Originally posted by Salas
It can be tackled mechanically for its most part in construction also. Expensively so non the less. On the other hand, with lesser in tightness parts we need at least double the caps and enough batteries.

See related video

Hi Salas

Good video, especially on the physical evidence towards the end, that "passive" capacitors are reactive devices, just like drivers are, even if not deliberately. It all fits into a pattern. Menno says he was able to measure significant amounts of distortion and when capacitors can "sing" like transducers, it is clear that this is not minor stuff.

BTW, it occurs to me that you'd like to read his paper in its entirety. It was made public at the same AES as the video clip:

http://www.mennovanderveen.nl/nl/dow...download_4.pdf

As I said earlier, no mention of deliberately biasing crossover caps, but what it says lends to the idea.

It also fits into what the video said, that it was voltage - despite the fact that Menno seems to focus more on the current. Actually, I don't think that is necessarily a contradiction. The voltage is the attractive force, but current is drawn if physical reaction takes place. But keeping a voltage charge across the plates/electrodes and not reversing it, this and mechanical attention are not mutually exclusive.

It will be interesting to hear from Elsinore constructors trying DC Bias.

Joe R.
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Old 1st April 2009, 05:12 AM   #450
Salas is offline Salas  Greece
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Hi Joe,

18V (2 bat. in series) would be better since its only one capacitor you concentrate on, and they will last for years. Down to 12V signal the electrostatic microphony phenomenon is mostly strong is mentioned in the video, so better cover more range higher up. It will be interesting to hear for differences with one vs two batteries as an easy test.

Regarding what is best to do, I guess mechanical construction measures are the base attack, but since those findings are proprietary to a certain company, using DC bias bears logic so to help all makes and also possibly lift higher for sonics previously suffering cheaper, loose made examples. Alas, the need for double the caps can offset possible economical benefits. The method lends to DIY easier.

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