BL4S7ER said:
That box looks somewhat familiar, is it a WES box?
If it is, something occurred to me... but will wait for answer before I respond further.
If you are using a ribbon tweeter as shown, then if used as a centre channel lying down, it needs 90 degrees rotation. But the HDS tweeter would not have that as a concern.
Joe R.
Cable bias included?
I was wondering about including cable bias in the 18V bias of the tweeter cap - in other words place everything to the left of the 2x9V bateries (in the picture) on the power amp. Now we have our tweeter cable also biased at 18V, perhaps the equivalent of those mega bucks cables with their own bias?
Any experience and/or comments?
Francois
Joe Rasmussen said:
I was wondering about including cable bias in the 18V bias of the tweeter cap - in other words place everything to the left of the 2x9V bateries (in the picture) on the power amp. Now we have our tweeter cable also biased at 18V, perhaps the equivalent of those mega bucks cables with their own bias?
Any experience and/or comments?
Francois
Re: Cable bias included?
Don't think the power amp would like it, a tube amp would definitely shorten it to zero volts via the DC resistance of the secondary. An SS amp would likely do the same but for different reasons and the tweeter's DC resistance would reduce the voltage to near nothing.
There must be no DC load on the battery and its series resistor. The current example the battery will last and last, but connect it elsewhere and it won't.
Now how others do use DC in their cables, they must be using some kind of way to isolate that DC from other connected parts of the system. Might they use caps? Isolation transformers? Not as big a problem with interconnects (but still not simple), but with speaker cables? For the time being I'll leave that one alone - but certainly interested in any ideas others might have re how to do it.
Joe R.
Francois G said:
Don't think the power amp would like it, a tube amp would definitely shorten it to zero volts via the DC resistance of the secondary. An SS amp would likely do the same but for different reasons and the tweeter's DC resistance would reduce the voltage to near nothing.
There must be no DC load on the battery and its series resistor. The current example the battery will last and last, but connect it elsewhere and it won't.
Now how others do use DC in their cables, they must be using some kind of way to isolate that DC from other connected parts of the system. Might they use caps? Isolation transformers? Not as big a problem with interconnects (but still not simple), but with speaker cables? For the time being I'll leave that one alone - but certainly interested in any ideas others might have re how to do it.
Joe R.
Well, finaly experiencing Elsinore with 300b mono amps that I built and it sure is wonderful. I certainly can see why Tube use is suggested.
Started by using these amps with the pre-out from an accuphase receiver and was enjoying good dynamics and articulate bass but didn't feel the rest was as good as it should be.
Now running cd straight into mono's and loving the mid's and hi's but lost bass power and definition. Fine with a few recordings.
I've been looking around for a "simple" pre amp project that will work well to drive these amps and remain as neutral as possible.
There is many available but thought someone might be suggest something..
Please email direct if you have any suggestions.
Joel
Started by using these amps with the pre-out from an accuphase receiver and was enjoying good dynamics and articulate bass but didn't feel the rest was as good as it should be.
Now running cd straight into mono's and loving the mid's and hi's but lost bass power and definition. Fine with a few recordings.
I've been looking around for a "simple" pre amp project that will work well to drive these amps and remain as neutral as possible.
There is many available but thought someone might be suggest something..
Please email direct if you have any suggestions.
Joel
Felt for Elsinore - sources or mini group buy?
To those builders in the USA,
What are you using for felt around the tweeter? Where and for how much did you buy it? Is it wool or synthetic fiber? Does the fiber make a difference in Elsinore's performance? What color? Esthetically I would prefer a dark brown to go with my Red Oak boxes, but colors are limited.
I searched and found a couple of felt suppliers but prices are per ft off a roll, usually 60-72 inches wide and in grey or white only. So, 1 ft will have sufficient material for two pairs of Elsinores. Prices are ~$30-60 per ft for 1/4 inch felt, so if two builders share it would cost about $24 for F5 off white felt (see http://www.mcmaster.com/#wool-felt/=1jkswr)
If anyone out there would like to join me on a felt buy please send email.
Thanks,
Francois
To those builders in the USA,
What are you using for felt around the tweeter? Where and for how much did you buy it? Is it wool or synthetic fiber? Does the fiber make a difference in Elsinore's performance? What color? Esthetically I would prefer a dark brown to go with my Red Oak boxes, but colors are limited.
I searched and found a couple of felt suppliers but prices are per ft off a roll, usually 60-72 inches wide and in grey or white only. So, 1 ft will have sufficient material for two pairs of Elsinores. Prices are ~$30-60 per ft for 1/4 inch felt, so if two builders share it would cost about $24 for F5 off white felt (see http://www.mcmaster.com/#wool-felt/=1jkswr)
If anyone out there would like to join me on a felt buy please send email.
Thanks,
Francois
Re: Re: Cable bias included?
Joe,
Apologies for my inexact statement of the cable bias idea. My scenario came out of the multi-amping discussion and was limited to the situation where one is using a separate amp to drive only the tweeters.
The first "crossover" cap (or pair of caps if you are using 2x4.7uF) would be on the amp before the speaker cable terminal instead of physically close to the second cap. That would not short the secondary in a tube or other amp. The second cap is in the tweeter crossover as before with everything between the two caps baised, including the speaker cable.
Hard to explain and I'm not able to post drawings. Guess I will have to try it and report back.
Regards and thanks for the fun project and company.
Francois
Joe Rasmussen said:
Joe,
Apologies for my inexact statement of the cable bias idea. My scenario came out of the multi-amping discussion and was limited to the situation where one is using a separate amp to drive only the tweeters.
The first "crossover" cap (or pair of caps if you are using 2x4.7uF) would be on the amp before the speaker cable terminal instead of physically close to the second cap. That would not short the secondary in a tube or other amp. The second cap is in the tweeter crossover as before with everything between the two caps baised, including the speaker cable.
Hard to explain and I'm not able to post drawings. Guess I will have to try it and report back.
Regards and thanks for the fun project and company.
Francois
Head up and question
Hi...
Just a head-up, esp. for US builders: Parts Express has the woofers onsale for $28 per if you buy 4 or more. Great deal!!
Joe, I have a couple of questions:
1. Are the woofers surface mounted or flush mounted? My preference for this odd shape woofer is to surface mount, if possible.
2. Can we use an alternative material for the felt? e.g. my old T shirts glued in layers??? the idea is to build a wave guide here with absorbent materials, right?
3. Parts Express has a 4 in dia x 4 in long port. (approximately 100mm x 100mm) Is this OK?
Thanks!
Duc
Hi...
Just a head-up, esp. for US builders: Parts Express has the woofers onsale for $28 per if you buy 4 or more. Great deal!!
Joe, I have a couple of questions:
1. Are the woofers surface mounted or flush mounted? My preference for this odd shape woofer is to surface mount, if possible.
2. Can we use an alternative material for the felt? e.g. my old T shirts glued in layers??? the idea is to build a wave guide here with absorbent materials, right?
3. Parts Express has a 4 in dia x 4 in long port. (approximately 100mm x 100mm) Is this OK?
Thanks!
Duc
Re: Felt for Elsinore - sources or mini group buy?
Lots of other sources of felt...
http://www.rods.com/p/755,248_Kodel-Felt-Blanket-Liner.html
http://www.thefind.com/pets/info-felt-blanket-liner
http://www.moverssupplies.com/MOVING-BLANKET/
much cheaper than mcmaster... and I doubt that the sound waves will care much about the cost...
John L.
Francois G said:
Lots of other sources of felt...
http://www.rods.com/p/755,248_Kodel-Felt-Blanket-Liner.html
http://www.thefind.com/pets/info-felt-blanket-liner
http://www.moverssupplies.com/MOVING-BLANKET/
much cheaper than mcmaster... and I doubt that the sound waves will care much about the cost...
John L.
Felt for Elsinore - sources or mini group buy?
Probably not cost but what about hailing from a horse's behind?
More seriously, thank you for the pointer to saddle liners.
Lots of other sources of felt...
http://www.rods.com/p/755,248_Kodel-Felt-Blanket-Liner.html
http://www.thefind.com/pets/info-felt-blanket-liner
http://www.moverssupplies.com/MOVING-BLANKET/
much cheaper than mcmaster... and I doubt that the sound waves will care much about the cost...
John L.
Probably not cost but what about hailing from a horse's behind?
More seriously, thank you for the pointer to saddle liners.
As per Joe's website regarding the square cutouts to the front sub panel:Tyson said:
Changing them to holes would enclose the back of the drivers quite a bit. Ideally not something you would want to do.
As far as using holes in lieu of square/ rectangular cutouts in the main brace, I'll chicken out and leave that one to Joe to answer.
Re: Head up and question
Hi Duc
Sorry, but have been a little out of the loop in the last few weeks. Been putting in long hours of amplifier work - the other hat that I also wear.
Only $38 US is an amazing price.
1. Not everybody are able to recess the driver and according to some of DST's info on the driver it was designed to be both. What about the difference in time alignment? Yes, there is a difference and if the driver is sunk further into the baffle the focus point is a little further back but not really consequential. It has to do with the slow rise time of the midbass relative to the rise time of the tweeter which is very fast. This fuzzy time edge, to use a photographic analogy, makes the exact point less critical. This is quite different from normal Butterworth 1st order that has to be milimetre accurate, or so we are told.
2. I suppose the answer is yes, but felt is so ideal. Foam would be my other choice. The current design uses two layer each supposedly 6.35mm, but the felt I sourced is closer to 8-9mm despite what they say. So they must have allowed for some kind of compression or load - but that doesn't apply here. Can you use three layer? Evidently yes as other constructors have done so, but use common sense as you have to interpolate the dimensions of the rectangular cut-outs.
3. The port cut-out has to fit between the two rear panel vertical braces and the space available is 100mm. Can the outside dimension of the port you have in mind fit inside that? If you go for a larger diameter port, the port will need to be longer. The box tuning should end up around 33-34 Hertz and can be checked with basic tools, multimeter and oscillator, when the box is fully assembled. But 4 inch I don't think will be anywhere near long enough.
On the subject of a suitable waveguide proper, this is definitely going to be looked at in the future. The idea would then be to get them made in quantity using a CNC machine, remove the felt, order in a pair of waveguides and simply substitute. The question will then be whether the crossover will nedd some tweaking to get the max out of it. If it does, then it may only need to have the value of C2 trimmed back, the value may be less; this will only become apparent in time.
Mayby this will become Mark 4 - but a reasonably easy upgrade from Mark 3?
Joe R.
hoxuanduc said:
Hi Duc
Sorry, but have been a little out of the loop in the last few weeks. Been putting in long hours of amplifier work - the other hat that I also wear.
Only $38 US is an amazing price.
1. Not everybody are able to recess the driver and according to some of DST's info on the driver it was designed to be both. What about the difference in time alignment? Yes, there is a difference and if the driver is sunk further into the baffle the focus point is a little further back but not really consequential. It has to do with the slow rise time of the midbass relative to the rise time of the tweeter which is very fast. This fuzzy time edge, to use a photographic analogy, makes the exact point less critical. This is quite different from normal Butterworth 1st order that has to be milimetre accurate, or so we are told.
2. I suppose the answer is yes, but felt is so ideal. Foam would be my other choice. The current design uses two layer each supposedly 6.35mm, but the felt I sourced is closer to 8-9mm despite what they say. So they must have allowed for some kind of compression or load - but that doesn't apply here. Can you use three layer? Evidently yes as other constructors have done so, but use common sense as you have to interpolate the dimensions of the rectangular cut-outs.
3. The port cut-out has to fit between the two rear panel vertical braces and the space available is 100mm. Can the outside dimension of the port you have in mind fit inside that? If you go for a larger diameter port, the port will need to be longer. The box tuning should end up around 33-34 Hertz and can be checked with basic tools, multimeter and oscillator, when the box is fully assembled. But 4 inch I don't think will be anywhere near long enough.
On the subject of a suitable waveguide proper, this is definitely going to be looked at in the future. The idea would then be to get them made in quantity using a CNC machine, remove the felt, order in a pair of waveguides and simply substitute. The question will then be whether the crossover will nedd some tweaking to get the max out of it. If it does, then it may only need to have the value of C2 trimmed back, the value may be less; this will only become apparent in time.
Mayby this will become Mark 4 - but a reasonably easy upgrade from Mark 3?
Joe R.
I think round cutouts in the braces should be fine.
I'm thinking of building a pair of "Elsinores" - except - using these woofers as the upper two:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=299-126
I imagine the crossover change will not be too difficult, cabinet will have to be modified some, should be fun
To really cut costs, I might try these tweeters instead of the HDS:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=279-450
Yes - I know it wouldn't be fair to call them Elsinores anymore at that point - but, who knows, might turn out well?
I'm thinking of building a pair of "Elsinores" - except - using these woofers as the upper two:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=299-126
I imagine the crossover change will not be too difficult, cabinet will have to be modified some, should be fun
To really cut costs, I might try these tweeters instead of the HDS:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=279-450
Yes - I know it wouldn't be fair to call them Elsinores anymore at that point - but, who knows, might turn out well?