Been there, done that. I honestly believe it is a dead end. See my lengthy reply to Allen a few minutes ago.
That's OK. You are not familiar with past history where things got rather unpleasant. I don't hold anything against you.
If I had the chance to start at the beginning, I would have handled it differently and perhaps better.
I am now a current guy and everything I see is through that prism. I want low distortion rather than a theoretical 'transient perfect' design. And I am definitely talking about distortion that can be measured. That's the surprising bit, because you can't argue with those.
Cheers, Joe
I think current drive, low distortion, and transient perfect all matter, but the priorities may vary. I look more at the day characteristics first. Once that meets a certain criteria, all other improvements become more obvious.Been there, done that. I honestly believe it is a dead end. See my lengthy reply to Allen a few minutes ago.
That's OK. You are not familiar with past history where things got rather unpleasant. I don't hold anything against you.
If I had the chance to start at the beginning, I would have handled it differently and perhaps better.
I am now a current guy and everything I see is through that prism. I want low distortion rather than a theoretical 'transient perfect' design. And I am definitely talking about distortion that can be measured. That's the surprising bit, because you can't argue with those.
Cheers, Joe
This is a good way of describing them, but I have been trying to put words to what the Elsinores sound like, and I think i have a better way of describing what they sound like. I have NEVER enjoyed music at any volume other than loud. Well I have since had kids, and it was shortly after I had my daughter that i built the Elsinores. My brother has a pair of Dunlavy's so I know what they sound like and he has some very high end gear as well, Mark Levinson, PS Audio, etc.
Any way, so I don't get to listen to my music loud hardly ever. Only if I'm here alone.
So I listen mostly when my kids are asleep at moderate level at best and low volumes. I've written a couple times about what the Elsinores sound like, but I don't think i had my finger on it like I do now. WHAT, is the best way to describe the Elsinores?
I was listening to them the other night, and I keep having the same experience. Joe you said it "comes out of the box rather than is trapped by it."
I would describe it as "the music is being beamed into my head", or "like the music is in my head", almost like a dream. Or "a dream come true" which is what these things are.
It's like the music coming from these speakers is like music literally being beamed into my head! It's truly remarkable!!!
And as much as I love music, as we all do, it is indeed a dream come true.
Hi Anthony
If you look at this, can you see the dB-SPL level referenced on the right is to approx 2.83V and hence well above 90dB for the most part - it is the top Red trace:
Yes, that ability to hear things even when you listen softly, is also part of it. I believe that this is about getting the current through the voice coil while suppressing the "back-EMF impedance" of the driver. That controversial phrase has now been accepted by three physicists as a 100% valid description and terminology. It is not a case of "wrong language" because it describes verbatim what it is. This "impedance" is the part above the DC resistance of the voice coil (usually called Re) and hence is the part that changes the impedance with frequency, which Re does not. So if Re is 6 Ohm and the actual impedance is 9 Ohm, the back-EMF is 3 Ohm, which is the difference. This part of the impedance is highly non-linear and if you suppress it, then you hear the improvement. Interestingly, those who like current-drive also hear this non-linear impedance and hear it too. In fact, it is the key to current-drive.
The science is sound and it will be proven by actual measurements. For the nay-sayers, well, they just have to wait. We have had to endure a pandemic, so why not have patience.
In the meantime: "JLTi" equals "Just Listen To It."
.
I don't have exact numbers, but the headroom is enormous and as for distortion, these are very low distortion loudspeakers at even extremely loud levels. The fact is that they don't need a big amp to go loud, I had a 300 Watt per channel amplifier (Hypex NCore 400 - I measured the power into 6 Ohm) and no problem. But you can clip most tube amplifiers and hence they can go very loud with a 20-30 Watt (they clip softly, gradually) without harm, but with 300 Watt solid-state, it is best not to clip at all (they clip hard) - and at that power most speakers would not suffer abuse.
I would say that the Elsinores could handle 1000 Watts peak with no clipping. That would be 120dB-SPL at one metre - it might damage your ears more than the speaker.
Keep this thought in mind too, the Elsinores have very low dynamic compression and they have a nice facility to sound louder than they are. But you need to find that out yourself.
So there you are, hope that allays any negative thoughts about building them.
MK5 vs MK6
I guess I have been following this thread for almost a decades or so. Some discussions (polarity of tweeters, current drive, changes of the cabinet or drivers etc etc) seem to never end, which is interesting.
Since my MK5’s are making it’s job in the home theatre in the basement since many years I am not here that frequent and therefore have a question.
Which ones of you have built and compared MK5’s with MK”latest” (6…7?) ????
What do you think are the biggest advantages with the later designs?
I guess I have been following this thread for almost a decades or so. Some discussions (polarity of tweeters, current drive, changes of the cabinet or drivers etc etc) seem to never end, which is interesting.
Since my MK5’s are making it’s job in the home theatre in the basement since many years I am not here that frequent and therefore have a question.
Which ones of you have built and compared MK5’s with MK”latest” (6…7?) ????
What do you think are the biggest advantages with the later designs?
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And yet we have only scratched the surface. I feel this forum should be mostly for constructors who need help rather than a forum for continous discussion of theory. But you sound like the person who later will be interested in the paper we (yes, I will have help) will be writing, that will go pretty deep into it.
The Mk5 are still very good, but the Mk6 uses a better driver primarily because it has so much lower inductance, in fact it is pretty to SOA in that department, and that means even lower distortions of the type that are important. A few I know have both in different rooms for slightly different uses and are keeping them, but in the primary role where it matters most, they will use Mk6. Hope that helps, others are free to express their thoughts.
A Mk7 is not yet on the cards. If I were to design it now, the Sartori MW16P-8 / Paper and you can get them in Black or White cones, would be favourites, but very much more expensive and will it be better? Actually, not sure.
Hi Joe,
While we're taking about loud output levels, I thought I'd ask about a potential issue I've noticed with my Elsinores. With some music I get "farting" from the bottom bass drivers at louder volume levels (>90dba with iPhone decibel meter). It's not necessarily bass heavy music per se, I even experienced it with JJ Cale (blues).
Is it possible that it could be a port issue?
Thanks.
While we're taking about loud output levels, I thought I'd ask about a potential issue I've noticed with my Elsinores. With some music I get "farting" from the bottom bass drivers at louder volume levels (>90dba with iPhone decibel meter). It's not necessarily bass heavy music per se, I even experienced it with JJ Cale (blues).
Is it possible that it could be a port issue?
Thanks.
Yes, it could be. I have not heard it myself and I have played them pretty loudly.
A larger diameter port reduces the peak velocity (which can be very significant) inside the port. This is the cause of potential chuffing sounds. But a wider diameter means that it also needs to be longer (for the same tuning frequency) and that gives you trouble with the insides of the box.
If we have a port that is gradual at the ends rather than straight, that might help, and at the same diameter might only make it slightly longer. But scoring one that is just right can be difficult, they are usually made of platic.
There is another thing you might try, the problem just might be one fairly discrete frequency, if your port length is 100mm, then shorten to 80mm which means only a fractionally higher tuning frequency - and see if that ameliorates the problem.
Agree completely. I can´t really understand why people are "stealing" the thread to have some sort of d¤%k length competition regarding speaker theory. I think it´s rather disrespectful. There are other forums for that.
So in other words it´s "better", whatever that mean. It would be good to hear what differs the most.
This is interesting. I use the MK6 driver MFC in a transmission line speaker, and it´s good. But is quite outperformed by the old SS 18W/8531G-00 in similar designs. This SS driver is bigger with other parameters so it wouldn´t fit. But it´s an interesting driver. Haven´t heard the MW16P-8, but it will certainly place the Elsinores in a different price division. Maybe out of range for many DIYers. The reason for that kind of MK7 might for you to be to see how good the Elsinores can be. But I also know how much work it is for each new version, especially with a new driver.
My MK5´s where built just before the MK6 was invented so I will try not to get into the same "issue" again. So the question would be is the MK6 final as it is now, or would it be updates, or a different driver version MK7?
For 76mm ID, this may have something to do with as well. The length of 72mm may be a bit too long for that diameter. The extra 10-11mm greater ID can make a difference, especially as you say at very loud volume. I have found that with ID close to 90mm and length between 80-100mm should be enough and rarely should anybody ever hear chuffing.
I bought the waveguides to build the Elsinore but now the listening room has changed, I will use the speakers in 14 square meters. For these dimensions are Hamlets more suitable? I am a little worried about the possible lack of bass due to the lack of bsc. Has anyone built them? Alternative speakers should bè Carrera by Paul Carmody... Thanks