Hi Luca,
Well, my darkroom is 18x27 feet, but the walls/ceiling are the problem. The walls angle up from about three feet high to the ceiling, the flat portion of which is four feet wide.
Add wet sink, dry sink, enlargers, and desk. There's just not room for big floorstanding speakers at the dry end. Even B&O Pentas, small but tall, did not work.
So far, Ohm Walsh 2s have been happiest, a three way box at 24.5" high(on 6" stands) was pretty good, but they were for a friend and did not stay long.
So, my problems are not likely to be common, and should be of no concern to others.
Well, my darkroom is 18x27 feet, but the walls/ceiling are the problem. The walls angle up from about three feet high to the ceiling, the flat portion of which is four feet wide.
Add wet sink, dry sink, enlargers, and desk. There's just not room for big floorstanding speakers at the dry end. Even B&O Pentas, small but tall, did not work.
So far, Ohm Walsh 2s have been happiest, a three way box at 24.5" high(on 6" stands) was pretty good, but they were for a friend and did not stay long.
So, my problems are not likely to be common, and should be of no concern to others.
The word need is highly subjective but in my opinion, the bass is good and that like the Elsinores, they only really need to cover below around 30 Hertz.
If you look in the picture above, you can make out that there is a sub there, but not used. I have a pair of SVS SB-3000 Subwoofers in the system. I can highly recommend them and in the SVS Subs range, for audio use, they are the sweet spot in their entire line. This is the one that has the split voice coil and they have a setting where you can roll off at 30 Hertz (-3dB) and 24dB cut-off (-24dB at 60 Hertz) and all you have to get right is, make sure the are in-phase and just adjust the volume. That's it, very little problem integrating with either Elsinores or Hamlets.
Hamlet Update:
I am collating all the data for the crossover and will cover the mapping numbers on the PCB (L1, L2 etc) for both Hamlet Mk6 and Elsinore "MFC" Mk-6.
The Parts List will be based on mainly Jantzen components, as they are readily available. The MDL Bi-Polar caps too are readily available and please don't waste dollars on more expensive caps when it comes to these. The same goes for three values of resistors where the usually available 10 Watt and 5 Watt sand-cast type. These are used in the current EQ and are not actually part of 'filtering' the audio signal. The critical parts are listed and here you could use more expensive (and hopefully better) parts. These are C1, L2, and R2. But what I am specifying already is also very good.
So we are almost there.
Yes, I will make some of these PCBs available, but they will be supplied with the L4 18mH inductor priced into the mix, this is difficult to source part and I have the exact same number that I have PCBs, so they should go together.
So give me a day or two and the above will be posted.
Yes, I have already noticed that. I am hoping getting a white pen marker might fix that.
Hi boswald, thank you for your kind reply, I need speakers with good sensivity and easy load for the F6 I am building. My current speakers are very similar to the Elsinore in terms of size so i shouldn't have your problems.
Thank you
Luca
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I am collating in three tables the values to be used:
1) The current Elsinore Mk-6 "MFC" version
2) The previous "NRXC" version(drivers no longer available, but there might still be some floating around out there)
3) The Hamlet Mk-6.
The PCB can be used with all of them.
IMPORTANT: Please note that the Hamlet Mk-6 uses the "MFC" drivers (SB17MFC35-8).
The tables will also include many Jantzen part numbers as the recommended components since these are readily available from many places. Like Parts Express in the US, HiFi Collective in the UK and so on.
So in effect, you will have a BOM included in the tables
The exception is the Jantzen 18mH (L4) that is not so easily available but will be included with the PCBs. So in effect, you will have a BOM included in the tables.
I am almost finished, so please be patient.
I have my first guests to hear the new Hamlets on Thursday our time. Hope to have more visitors in the near future and get their reaction.
1) The current Elsinore Mk-6 "MFC" version
2) The previous "NRXC" version(drivers no longer available, but there might still be some floating around out there)
3) The Hamlet Mk-6.
The PCB can be used with all of them.
IMPORTANT: Please note that the Hamlet Mk-6 uses the "MFC" drivers (SB17MFC35-8).
The tables will also include many Jantzen part numbers as the recommended components since these are readily available from many places. Like Parts Express in the US, HiFi Collective in the UK and so on.
So in effect, you will have a BOM included in the tables
The exception is the Jantzen 18mH (L4) that is not so easily available but will be included with the PCBs. So in effect, you will have a BOM included in the tables.
I am almost finished, so please be patient.
I have my first guests to hear the new Hamlets on Thursday our time. Hope to have more visitors in the near future and get their reaction.
a quick question about the crossover.
Since the R2 is dependent on the Ohms of L4. You could just size L4 to have a large resistance, fx around 5ohms and just add a R2 of 2 ohms resistor.
But the R2 is the only resistor marked with a minimum of 10watts. So I would assume that there is a lot of power going trough L4.
So now to the question. Is it beneficial to get a low ohm L4 coil? Or would the heat be negligible?
Since the R2 is dependent on the Ohms of L4. You could just size L4 to have a large resistance, fx around 5ohms and just add a R2 of 2 ohms resistor.
But the R2 is the only resistor marked with a minimum of 10watts. So I would assume that there is a lot of power going trough L4.
So now to the question. Is it beneficial to get a low ohm L4 coil? Or would the heat be negligible?
Some good questions there, so a good opportunity to clarify.
Re R2, depending on bass content, it has been our experience that it can get quite hot, so a min of 10W. But this also depends on the DC resistance of L4 because it does see the same current. If the resistance of L4 is zero, then R2 value must be around 7R, then and all the heat will come from the resistor. But if L4 shares part of that resistance, then it will do a share of the heat. The inductor has a much higher mass than the resistor, so it will take a lot to heat it up. The copper will absorb a lot of energy as it has thermal mass which also means it will heat up much more slowly than the resistor.
I am myself now using the Jantzen 000-5391 18mH inductor with 3R2 DC resistance and 3R9 10W resistor, so about 55% of the heat will be the resistor and 45% of the inductor. The resistor will get a lot warmer than the inductor.
But this Jantzen inductor is not easy to get and with somebody who is a Jantzen dealer, 60 were made and I got 30 of them. In the future I will get some more of the other 30? Time will tell.
Hope the above helps make things clearer.
Re the Hamlet and Elsinore PCB, I am not happy with the current version and I am going to reorder a revised design. So that has been put on the backburner for now. The decision will be made in about a month.
Joe:
Very exciting! Have you gotten the cabinet design close to the point where you can reveal it?
I did a quick search for the Jantzen 000-5391 inductor and came up short. You've recommended Jantzen crossover components in the past and they clearly have a great price to value ratio, but if this particular inductor is hard to source we'll need to find alternatives. Erse Audio offers quite a few 18mH inductors (and I used their largest 20mH inductors in my Elsinore builds), some of which are "perfect lay" designs. Unfortunately, it appears that most of Erse's 18mH inductors have minimum order quantities of 10 or 25 units.
If there is adequate interest in the Hamlets here in the US and if a suitable Erse (or other non-Jantzen brand) inductor is only available with a large minimum quantity order, I would consider hosting a group buy.
Just a thought.
Regards,
Scott
Very exciting! Have you gotten the cabinet design close to the point where you can reveal it?
I did a quick search for the Jantzen 000-5391 inductor and came up short. You've recommended Jantzen crossover components in the past and they clearly have a great price to value ratio, but if this particular inductor is hard to source we'll need to find alternatives. Erse Audio offers quite a few 18mH inductors (and I used their largest 20mH inductors in my Elsinore builds), some of which are "perfect lay" designs. Unfortunately, it appears that most of Erse's 18mH inductors have minimum order quantities of 10 or 25 units.
If there is adequate interest in the Hamlets here in the US and if a suitable Erse (or other non-Jantzen brand) inductor is only available with a large minimum quantity order, I would consider hosting a group buy.
Just a thought.
Regards,
Scott
It looks like a solid 4 ohm
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/97043-elsinore-project-thread-395.html#post6692902
I need to get some new output transformers for my tube amp, I guess
It's possible you might be able to get them to drop ship. I'm looking at building 3 for sure possibly 5 sets, I have to talk to a friend of mine about the 2nd pair, but I'll buy 3 for sure, if I don't get them from Joe, as I need at least one more waveguide, I bought another pair a couple months ago already.
Some quick answers and remarks.
Nominally 4 Ohm, for sure.*
Working on converting Mk2 drawings into Mk6 drawings right now, so not far away.
The Jantzen 000-5391 inductor is part of their larger catalogue and you have to order in quantity. I have 30 here and the local supplier has another 30. Because it uses thinner wire and more turns, it is smaller and has 3R2 DC resistance and is perfect for the job with both Hamlet and Elsinores.
The Erse inductor will likely have unnecessary low resistance and hence be physically larger. Chances are that I can supply ample number of the Jantzen, which is frankly perfect for the job, so contact me joeras@customanalogue.com to work something out.
Yes, but minimum number to order will surely apply. I already have access to up to 60 here and they weigh 260gr each. Compare that to what is available, I see 500gr plus and physically very large, unnecessarily so. Low DC resistance costs money and is not needed.
Probably not. Because the impedance is so flat, often not too much of a penalty if you only got 8 Ohm taps?
I have specifically asked a number of speaker designers if the do the full 6dB of step compensation. More like 3-4dB in most cases. In average size rooms that works out OK because boundaries below 200 Hertz come into play. But if you have an extremely large room, then you would need the full 6dB. Anyway, that is my thoughts on the matter and in speaking to others over the years.
Yes, maybe only 0.33mH, but keep in mind that this is a 4 Ohm system, hence equal to 0.66mH for 8 Ohm, and 1.32mH at 16 Ohm. Look at the Elsinore to the MidBass leg which is 16 Ohm and uses 1mH. So that 0.33mH is still significant in what it does.
BTW, even in the Elsinores there is not a full 6dB baffle step compensation. This is partly because I wanted a speaker with above 90dB sensitivity.
But it is an interesting topic, but there are decisions that the designer has to make and make the thing work as a whole. You are right, the compensation is slightly less than in the Hamlets than the Elsinores, but not by too much. It is a judgment call and also keep in mind that some of these will end up near a wall under the screen as a centre-channel. And yet they are not bass light when used into the room as they are working here right now. I am actually very pleased.
If used as a centre-channel, you do have the option of putting a sock or towel into the port (will make it behave as a sealed low-Q box), which will not be an eye-sore because the port is in the rear. The bass output will be reduced, but also very tightly controlled.
I should be able to send both the waveguides and the Jantzen inductors together. Like I said, I have access to up to 60 of these and they don't weigh too much to send by air, especially if it is a good number together.
---
*The Elsinores are flat 6 Ohm approx, nominally still 8 Ohm because they do not drop below 5.6 Ohm.
The Elsinores are flat 4 Ohm approx and do not drop below 3.5 Ohm. They are 4 Ohm because they do not drop below 2.8 Ohm.
The old convention that the lowest impedance should never be lower than 70% of the rated impedance, it is clear that many don't follow that and common to see measurements in Stereophile etc falling way too low to be rated 8 Om, and 4 Ohm too. I am old-school and keep strictly to the convention or else you are just misinforming your users. OK, rant over.
Nominally 4 Ohm, for sure.*
Working on converting Mk2 drawings into Mk6 drawings right now, so not far away.
The Jantzen 000-5391 inductor is part of their larger catalogue and you have to order in quantity. I have 30 here and the local supplier has another 30. Because it uses thinner wire and more turns, it is smaller and has 3R2 DC resistance and is perfect for the job with both Hamlet and Elsinores.
The Erse inductor will likely have unnecessary low resistance and hence be physically larger. Chances are that I can supply ample number of the Jantzen, which is frankly perfect for the job, so contact me joeras@customanalogue.com to work something out.
Yes, but minimum number to order will surely apply. I already have access to up to 60 here and they weigh 260gr each. Compare that to what is available, I see 500gr plus and physically very large, unnecessarily so. Low DC resistance costs money and is not needed.
It looks like a solid 4 ohm
Yep.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/97043-elsinore-project-thread-395.html#post6692902
I need to get some new output transformers for my tube amp, I guess
Probably not. Because the impedance is so flat, often not too much of a penalty if you only got 8 Ohm taps?
I have specifically asked a number of speaker designers if the do the full 6dB of step compensation. More like 3-4dB in most cases. In average size rooms that works out OK because boundaries below 200 Hertz come into play. But if you have an extremely large room, then you would need the full 6dB. Anyway, that is my thoughts on the matter and in speaking to others over the years.
Yes, maybe only 0.33mH, but keep in mind that this is a 4 Ohm system, hence equal to 0.66mH for 8 Ohm, and 1.32mH at 16 Ohm. Look at the Elsinore to the MidBass leg which is 16 Ohm and uses 1mH. So that 0.33mH is still significant in what it does.
BTW, even in the Elsinores there is not a full 6dB baffle step compensation. This is partly because I wanted a speaker with above 90dB sensitivity.
But it is an interesting topic, but there are decisions that the designer has to make and make the thing work as a whole. You are right, the compensation is slightly less than in the Hamlets than the Elsinores, but not by too much. It is a judgment call and also keep in mind that some of these will end up near a wall under the screen as a centre-channel. And yet they are not bass light when used into the room as they are working here right now. I am actually very pleased.
If used as a centre-channel, you do have the option of putting a sock or towel into the port (will make it behave as a sealed low-Q box), which will not be an eye-sore because the port is in the rear. The bass output will be reduced, but also very tightly controlled.
I should be able to send both the waveguides and the Jantzen inductors together. Like I said, I have access to up to 60 of these and they don't weigh too much to send by air, especially if it is a good number together.
---
*The Elsinores are flat 6 Ohm approx, nominally still 8 Ohm because they do not drop below 5.6 Ohm.
The Elsinores are flat 4 Ohm approx and do not drop below 3.5 Ohm. They are 4 Ohm because they do not drop below 2.8 Ohm.
The old convention that the lowest impedance should never be lower than 70% of the rated impedance, it is clear that many don't follow that and common to see measurements in Stereophile etc falling way too low to be rated 8 Om, and 4 Ohm too. I am old-school and keep strictly to the convention or else you are just misinforming your users. OK, rant over.
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Joe, I'll send you an email, tomorrow or hopefully Sunday. The friend of mine I wanted to talk to about the 2nd pair, he called me back but I was talking to my cousin in Sweden when he called back, so I still haven't talked to him yet. But mark me down for three sets of inductors plus at least one more wave guide.
I'm really excited, partially because I think the Hamlets will be easier to get people into this VERY hi-end DIY speakers and experience something they could not possibly imagine without spending far more than many people are willing to spend! Plus I can't wait to add this as my center channel. Thanks again Joe, for everything you do!
I'm really excited, partially because I think the Hamlets will be easier to get people into this VERY hi-end DIY speakers and experience something they could not possibly imagine without spending far more than many people are willing to spend! Plus I can't wait to add this as my center channel. Thanks again Joe, for everything you do!