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Old 4th January 2013, 02:11 AM   #1391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois G View Post
Hi Joel,

Thanks for your help on the Mini JR Question.

Another question, in your opinion, please.

Should I build the pair of minis used for accombined channel, or a dedicated center channel speaker with 6.25 nomex drivers-I bought two extras.

Those Elsinore aluminum wave guides you sent are sounding wonderfiul. Thanks so much!

Francois
Hi Francois,

I would choose a Hamlet center over a Mini center to go with the Elsinore..
Mostly because the tweeters sound quite different..

I dont have a SS processor and havent heard the mini as a center so cant say how well it might work out.. I have a spot for a hamlet and mostly look forward to seperating dialogue for movies..

I think the Minis should be used as small monitors for Music only..

Hope this helps...
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Old 4th January 2013, 04:32 AM   #1392
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Originally Posted by Joel Wesseling View Post
Hi Francois,

I would choose a Hamlet center over a Mini center to go with the Elsinore..
Mostly because the tweeters sound quite different..
Yeah, the Hamlet will have elements of Elsinore Mk5 that the JR Mini does not.

I just need to find the time to do the Hamlets - there has been so many things happening. I have the HDS Nomex drivers, need to get another set of HDS Tweeters - at least then have the bits.

Cheers, Joe R.
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Old 4th January 2013, 04:52 AM   #1393
irext is offline irext  Australia
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Originally Posted by ermat1234 View Post
I agree with your comments Pete. My first impression is how effortlessly they perform. Then when you crank the volume a little .... WOW.
Big soundstage. I started at 2.8 meters apart but going to try closer to 4 meters.
My Elsinores are about 2 metres apart and I sit a bit over 2 metres from them. All dictated by the room they live in. The biggest difference I noticed was from toeing them out somewhat. This made them less toppy for want of a better word but did not detract from the hollographic sound stage they produce. I've probably said it before on this forum but they are deceptively loud. You think they are just ticking over until someone (usually my wife) tries to talk over them and you can see their mouth moving but that's all. They still blow me away even after having them for 15 months now.
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Old 4th January 2013, 04:56 AM   #1394
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Originally Posted by Joe Rasmussen View Post
Yeah, the Hamlet will have elements of Elsinore Mk5 that the JR Mini does not.

I just need to find the time to do the Hamlets - there has been so many things happening. I have the HDS Nomex drivers, need to get another set of HDS Tweeters - at least then have the bits.

Cheers, Joe R.

I'll send a set of tweeters or pay and someone sends local, whichever works best belated

Anyone want to help with other parts along the way?

Darn, I have to listen to the Eslinores in stereo until center develops

Joel
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Old 4th January 2013, 06:21 AM   #1395
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Originally Posted by irext View Post
My Elsinores are about 2 metres apart and I sit a bit over 2 metres from them. All dictated by the room they live in. The biggest difference I noticed was from toeing them out somewhat. This made them less toppy for want of a better word but did not detract from the hollographic sound stage they produce. I've probably said it before on this forum but they are deceptively loud. You think they are just ticking over until someone (usually my wife) tries to talk over them and you can see their mouth moving but that's all. They still blow me away even after having them for 15 months now.
I started at 2.8 meters apart, then tried 4.0m. (way to wide) Have since worked my way back to 2.8m, which in my room sounds best.
Some toe-in also made a big diference.

Have started with the basic crossover, 1mm tweeter spacer and gap unfilled , 33 ohm resistors across the midrange terminals.

They reflect the input quality to a much higher degree than my old speakers. My best recordings now really stand out.
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Old 4th January 2013, 01:02 PM   #1396
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I understand that MTM for center lying flat has unique crossover?

So a pair of MTM monitors is different than same MTM speaker for center?

Is this wrong?

Cheers, Joel
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Old 4th January 2013, 11:12 PM   #1397
jdkJake is offline jdkJake  United States
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Originally Posted by Joel Wesseling View Post
I'll send a set of tweeters or pay and someone sends local, whichever works best belated

Anyone want to help with other parts along the way?

Darn, I have to listen to the Eslinores in stereo until center develops

Joel
I'm game.

Let me know what you think we might need.
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Old 4th January 2013, 11:21 PM   #1398
jdkJake is offline jdkJake  United States
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Originally Posted by ermat1234 View Post
I started at 2.8 meters apart, then tried 4.0m. (way to wide) Have since worked my way back to 2.8m, which in my room sounds best.
Some toe-in also made a big diference.

Have started with the basic crossover, 1mm tweeter spacer and gap unfilled , 33 ohm resistors across the midrange terminals.

They reflect the input quality to a much higher degree than my old speakers. My best recordings now really stand out.
My Elsinores are 89 inches apart (tweeter center to tweeter to center). Approximately 56 inches from the side walls and about 36 inches from the back wall. I would love to bring them out further, but the needs of a functional living area make that impractical. I think distance from the sides walls is just as important as any other boundary. They allow them some breathing room.

I generally sit about 9 and a half feet back for the near-field. The Elsinore's are toed-in only a few degrees. The toe-in really makes the difference in the sweet spot location for left-to-right. You will know when you get it set right as it really clicks in when you get it right for your room. I have also noticed the front-to-back sweet spot is much bigger than most speakers. I can sit anywhere from about 7 to 11 feet and get an impressive sound abet with a slightly different set of trade-offs.
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Old 4th January 2013, 11:51 PM   #1399
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Originally Posted by Joel Wesseling View Post
I understand that MTM for center lying flat has unique crossover?
No, it should work just fine. If you get proper vector summing between the drivers, then you will have good symmetry both laterally and also good, but not quite as good vertically. Vertical then becomes lateral when you lay it flat. This should apply to any well designed MTM lying flat. It will never be as good, it can't be, but still acceptable.

We would certainly want to have the option of both building pairs and singles without complications.

Cheers, Joe R.
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Last edited by Joe Rasmussen; 4th January 2013 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 5th January 2013, 12:24 AM   #1400
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I have a question, one that may or may not arise, re the Hamlet.

When all the measurements are done in-box, both acoustic and electrical, then the crossover can be modelled. At this point we must decide, do we want this to be a 4 Ohm system?

Keep in mind that the Elsinores are nominally 8 Ohm (the Z does not drop 5.6 Ohm and qualifies as such), but is in fact a flat 6 Ohm.

So a nominal 4 Ohm will actually turn out a 3 Ohm flat Z (it qualifies as 4 Ohm if it does not drop below 2.8 Ohm).

Will that be acceptable? A 3 Ohm speaker? But still nominally 4 Ohm.

This is with the HDS Nomex drivers in parallel. We can also put them in series as we do with the Elsinores, but here we don't have the bottom two drivers to fill in the diffraction loss and boost lower part of the midrange. Advantage to the Elsinores, the Hamlets are not going to be as easy to drive - but of course that does not mean we are aiming for anything other than a benevolent load.

We could end up with a 12 Ohm flat Z system.

In both instances the efficiency will be the same (again we are not being exact but simply guided by basic numbers), but the voltage sensitivity will be different.

You may ask how that can be? The efficiency is related to how much electrical energy is needed to get to, say, 92dBSPL - so it is current times voltage. But sensitivity is related to voltage alone. So 12 Ohm will need twice (6dB more) voltage swing, but half the current. So to get to the same 92dBSPL it will use the same electrical energy.

So 4 Ohm speakers are a lot more sensitive (to voltage) than 8 Ohm. So whenever you look at speakers specs and see the "Sensitivity" - then look at the Impedance too.

Back to the Hamlets, the good thing is this: I can model both possibilities, present them here, look at the pro and cons, and only then make a decision - and no crossover made until then. The modelling is actually quite accurate when it comes to this kind of scenario. But the numbers may work out to suit only one choice.

So that is the plan, at least now.

Cheers, Joe R.
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Last edited by Joe Rasmussen; 5th January 2013 at 12:34 AM.
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