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Old 3rd October 2012, 02:11 PM   #1311
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I'm still looking for a pair in the upper Midwest; MN, ND, SD, IA, WI, IL.

A pair I can go listen to. I swore I'd never build a pair of passive speakers again but these have been bugging me for a long time.

I built a 2 way using the woofer and the Vifa D25 which I think was the first tweeter in the Elsinore. (yes/no?) and still like them. My teenager has them in his room.
Mike
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Old 3rd October 2012, 11:28 PM   #1312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Wesseling View Post
Looks like theres lots of the woofers out there...
Joel
Are you a dog person?

OK, here goes.

The Nomex only needs one of the LCRs, so omit 2.2uF/0.12mH/1R5 (C13, L14 and R15).

So that's a good start getting rid of three components. The Nomex has a smoother roll-off above the crossover and that is why it isn't needed.

Because the Nomex cone is lighter, the tonal balance will be affected. But due to the same motor and cone profile has a similar response shape, this is why we should be able to get away with it. Normally I would prefer to computer model it, but knowing both of these drivers well - we can get away with it, but you need to do a little work yourself... read on....

The Tweeter's output needs to be increased slightly. The R16 should be decreased in value, I would suggest trying 4R. The other component is the main series cap C0 - it may be worth adding a 0.33uF in parallel (bumping up the value slightly) to 4.3uF approx.

These two values should be adjusted by ear, but only changed by the minimum amount that you can get away with. Indeed listen to it with the previous values first and see if you find the Tweter's output a little dull. If so, then decrease R16 and increase C0 by ear.

That's it. Let me know how it goes.

Cheers, Joe R.
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Last edited by Joe Rasmussen; 3rd October 2012 at 11:30 PM.
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Old 4th October 2012, 12:58 AM   #1313
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Location: Courtice, Ontario
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Gergen View Post
I'm still looking for a pair in the upper Midwest; MN, ND, SD, IA, WI, IL.

A pair I can go listen to. I swore I'd never build a pair of passive speakers again but these have been bugging me for a long time.

I built a 2 way using the woofer and the Vifa D25 which I think was the first tweeter in the Elsinore. (yes/no?) and still like them. My teenager has them in his room.
Mike
I think the first tweeter in Elsinore was XT25

I'm building Elsinore Cabs for someone I didn't know until he bought a used cd player from me I had placed on CAM and this is one of things he said.

"Elsinore is truly an amazing speaker.....Soundstage and Image 2nd to none."

Sorry, no help for you to hear them but thought I would mention it

Joel
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Old 4th October 2012, 01:16 AM   #1314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Rasmussen View Post
Are you a dog person?

OK, here goes.

The Nomex only needs one of the LCRs, so omit 2.2uF/0.12mH/1R5 (C13, L14 and R15).

So that's a good start getting rid of three components. The Nomex has a smoother roll-off above the crossover and that is why it isn't needed.

Because the Nomex cone is lighter, the tonal balance will be affected. But due to the same motor and cone profile has a similar response shape, this is why we should be able to get away with it. Normally I would prefer to computer model it, but knowing both of these drivers well - we can get away with it, but you need to do a little work yourself... read on....

The Tweeter's output needs to be increased slightly. The R16 should be decreased in value, I would suggest trying 4R. The other component is the main series cap C0 - it may be worth adding a 0.33uF in parallel (bumping up the value slightly) to 4.3uF approx.

These two values should be adjusted by ear, but only changed by the minimum amount that you can get away with. Indeed listen to it with the previous values first and see if you find the Tweter's output a little dull. If so, then decrease R16 and increase C0 by ear.

That's it. Let me know how it goes.

Cheers, Joe R.
Thats really good. Thank You

I'm aiming for 3 for upstairs TV above fireplace, one is for center
2 for work room in basement
2 for stepson for xmas(I mean cabs he buys components)

Two woofers at home, 4 dogs total when I sit others

Joel
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Old 4th October 2012, 01:22 AM   #1315
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The design of these is elegant which is why they interest me. I built a active 3 way system and love it.

If I build another pair, a passive pair, I want to look at these. No idea when I'd do it yet though.

I want to listen to them.
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Old 4th October 2012, 01:27 AM   #1316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Rasmussen View Post
Are you a dog person?

OK, here goes.

The Nomex only needs one of the LCRs, so omit 2.2uF/0.12mH/1R5 (C13, L14 and R15).

So that's a good start getting rid of three components. The Nomex has a smoother roll-off above the crossover and that is why it isn't needed.

Because the Nomex cone is lighter, the tonal balance will be affected. But due to the same motor and cone profile has a similar response shape, this is why we should be able to get away with it. Normally I would prefer to computer model it, but knowing both of these drivers well - we can get away with it, but you need to do a little work yourself... read on....

The Tweeter's output needs to be increased slightly. The R16 should be decreased in value, I would suggest trying 4R. The other component is the main series cap C0 - it may be worth adding a 0.33uF in parallel (bumping up the value slightly) to 4.3uF approx.

These two values should be adjusted by ear, but only changed by the minimum amount that you can get away with. Indeed listen to it with the previous values first and see if you find the Tweter's output a little dull. If so, then decrease R16 and increase C0 by ear.

That's it. Let me know how it goes.

Cheers, Joe R.
"Because the Nomex cone is lighter, the tonal balance will be affected."

Can I expect it to be similar to Elsinore? Elsinore is very organic so I'm thinking its partly related to Nomex.. Should the Organic factor go up with the Nomex mini??

Joel
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Old 4th October 2012, 02:57 AM   #1317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Gergen View Post
I'm still looking for a pair in the upper Midwest; MN, ND, SD, IA, WI, IL.

Mike
Hi Mike,

I'm in Champaign IL, not close, but if you make it down this way I will be happy to let you hear my Elsinore Mk V's.

My listening room is not great and my system consists of a DIY 12B4 pre, and old EICO HF70 amp, with good CD source. But the Elsinores are the best speakers I've had, including a pair of Soundlab electrostats.

Kind regards,
Francois
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Old 4th October 2012, 03:06 AM   #1318
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Originally Posted by Joel Wesseling View Post
I have 4 JR Mini boxes made up ....can I use the Nomex HDS woofer without Crossover change?

Thanks, Joel
Joel,

Where did you get this JR Mini design you posted in #1306? I've searched but can't find the original. Please help.

I bought 2 extra Elsinore woofers and had been waiting for Joe's center design. Is this it?

Francois

P.S. The waveguides I bought from you look great and perform very well. Thanks again.
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Old 4th October 2012, 06:16 AM   #1319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Wesseling View Post
Can I expect it to be similar to Elsinore? Elsinore is very organic so I'm thinking its partly related to Nomex..
I wish it was that simple. I would have designed them somewhat diffferently now. Keep in mind, no Waveguide, and forn now I cannot see me designing speakers without Waveguides, knowing what I know now.

It's not that they won't be good.

Cheers, Joe
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Old 4th October 2012, 06:43 AM   #1320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Gergen View Post
The design of these is elegant which is why they interest me. I built a active 3 way system and love it.

If I build another pair, a passive pair, I want to look at these. No idea when I'd do it yet though.

I want to listen to them.
Hi Mike

You say you like active speakers. And I agree, all other things being equal, there are significant advantages going that way. But the real advantage is barely mentioned at all, and it's at the heart of the Elsinore approach: The amplifier is a "voltage" device, dynamic drivers are "current" devices. Conventional Multi-Way speaker systems - and may I use a rather unscientic expression - the current gets scrambled. To put it bluntly, it creates noise. The more scientific understanding is in the area off Doppler and FM (Frequency Modulated) types of distortions, but the more common catch-all phrase is actually jitter. Except we hardly ever use that term in connection with speakers. We need speakers with low jitter, with a low noise floor.

What the Elsinore approach does is to keep the current as clean and uncontaminated as possible. Keep in mind that the individual driver, whether they be Bass, Mids or Tweters, these do not respond to the voltage across its terminals (its VC). But rather responds, makes sounds due to the current through the Voice Coil.

Indeed here a properly configured passive crossover may even have an advantage over active drive. Since the amplifier is a "voltage" device, it can deliver current at any phase angle. But a "current" device can only deliver zero degree phase angle. That is the ideal situation for the driver. So the optimum current through a VC should be zero degree phase angle. If we can limit the current angle of the amplifier, then the crossover can optimised for that and now the bad guy can be turned into the good guy. Our simulations prove that large series reactance and/or resistance acts as a limiter and flattens the current phase angle. The Waveguide is a huge factor here. Below 10KHz the Tweeter in the Elsinore runs much closer to current mode than even in an active speaker system.

So the bottom line is this, the very reason you like active speakers may well turn out to be the same reason that I predict you will like the Elsinores.

Cheers, Joe R.
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Last edited by Joe Rasmussen; 4th October 2012 at 06:45 AM.
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