I have a friend that has a pair of these that he will be using in a two way monitor system. He also heard that the 17W75LQ are not recommended to be driven wide open in a sealed box as to the 17W75 which they can be. They said the LQ’s are not recommended to be run under 70 Hz or with a capacitor to limit them. He heard that the LQ’s should be capped on the bottom frequencies or they will be bottoming out. Does anyone know the real load down on this situation that can share your knowledge?
Some of mentioned things are apparently true.
I have Dynaudio 1.3mk2, and they use the LQ driver, since it bottoms out very, very frequently. The same story is true for the smaller Audience 52SE, as described on some reviews, since they use the drivers after ceasing the production of 1.3's (ref.
http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/loudspeakers/dynaudio52sep2.php
and
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7995&highlight=dynaudio+audience+52se)
Both speakers are bass reflex loaded and suffer from the same problem, although for the 1.3s I really don't know if there's problems only with some particular series, or the whole production have sam issue.
The review mentioned above is the only one I can find describing the bottoming out.
I'm also very interested about resolving/clarifying this question.
I have Dynaudio 1.3mk2, and they use the LQ driver, since it bottoms out very, very frequently. The same story is true for the smaller Audience 52SE, as described on some reviews, since they use the drivers after ceasing the production of 1.3's (ref.
http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/loudspeakers/dynaudio52sep2.php
and
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7995&highlight=dynaudio+audience+52se)
Both speakers are bass reflex loaded and suffer from the same problem, although for the 1.3s I really don't know if there's problems only with some particular series, or the whole production have sam issue.
The review mentioned above is the only one I can find describing the bottoming out.
I'm also very interested about resolving/clarifying this question.
speedemon said:
These are small woofers when used in small ported cabs are most probably fine for very small rooms and/or a nearfield monitor. Can bottom out in ported much easier than sealed when driven hard or designed into stand mounted farfield designs. When sealed guessing LF response is around 70Hz or so. The question of bottoming out is relative to drive level and the enclosure/crossover design, not according to just the driver. So in summary it depends on what you do with em. If I had them I'd use them as low mids in a 3 or 4 way. Or maybe just a mixing desk 2 way with a Sub helper.
edit>how is your 3 way woofer inductor design going?
Re: Re: Question on Dynaudio 17W75LQ Esotec
infinia
Thanks for your input. I have put my project on hold for now and seeing how my friend is going to set his up. Since he picked up these drivers on the used market I like to see how the outcome is on them first. I figured that if he can get his setup right then I would use that same setup and incorporated my 30W100’s as the low frequency subs. Basically running a two way system and using four 17W75LQ & the Esotery as the two way the four 30W100’s as the subs in the same enclosure since the binding post are the 17W75LQ & Esotar is together and the 30W100’s are separate. That was one idea that was brought by someone which I thought that might work.
infinia said:
infinia
Thanks for your input. I have put my project on hold for now and seeing how my friend is going to set his up. Since he picked up these drivers on the used market I like to see how the outcome is on them first. I figured that if he can get his setup right then I would use that same setup and incorporated my 30W100’s as the low frequency subs. Basically running a two way system and using four 17W75LQ & the Esotery as the two way the four 30W100’s as the subs in the same enclosure since the binding post are the 17W75LQ & Esotar is together and the 30W100’s are separate. That was one idea that was brought by someone which I thought that might work.
Infinia
No he's not bi-amping, he's just setting the 17W75LQ & the Esotar with the crosssover using these two drivers going as a two way system full range and running a single amp.
For me, I have no option either but to setup my crossover correctly too as I can not afford two Krell's as one is already enough since they suck up so much power.
No he's not bi-amping, he's just setting the 17W75LQ & the Esotar with the crosssover using these two drivers going as a two way system full range and running a single amp.
For me, I have no option either but to setup my crossover correctly too as I can not afford two Krell's as one is already enough since they suck up so much power.
Infina
I got the system dialed in now after playing with it the last few weeks. Like I said I was going to run the 17W75LQ down to full range. I'm not rolling them off on the low end at all. As I said these are woofers and I really don't I'm going to have a problem of bottoming out as I think the people that are bottoming them out is only using them as their only low frequency source. As I said I'm running two of the 17W75LQ's with also two 30W100's and the 17W75LQ is not my only source for my low end. So I can see why other people had trouble because they were probably over driving them. Pictured below is speaker and my system and if you would like to know more of what I'm running check out my introduction link:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1135712
I got the system dialed in now after playing with it the last few weeks. Like I said I was going to run the 17W75LQ down to full range. I'm not rolling them off on the low end at all. As I said these are woofers and I really don't I'm going to have a problem of bottoming out as I think the people that are bottoming them out is only using them as their only low frequency source. As I said I'm running two of the 17W75LQ's with also two 30W100's and the 17W75LQ is not my only source for my low end. So I can see why other people had trouble because they were probably over driving them. Pictured below is speaker and my system and if you would like to know more of what I'm running check out my introduction link:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1135712
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Hi all
I can confirm another mid woofer speaker in the Dynaudio range - the 17W75XL does bottom out. It is different than the plain 17W75 in that it has a Qts of 0.4 - so it is closer to the specs for the 17W75LQ and is suitable for sealed or vented cabinets.
I have mine in a vented cabinet with a D260 Esotec tweeter using the 'Nuance' diy design (much like the Audience 62). The other night I was listening to a Ray Brown playing bass and I heard this muffling boom in the bass. I tried everything to get rid of the boom including:
- change amps. Went from my 40W cyrus to a 14W pp triode valve to a 70W Pioneer with no difference
- change speaker location. Bring them into the room. No change.
- put in some stuffing, pull out some stuffing. No change
- change the vent tuning frequency. No change.
- stuffed some socks in the vents. This did reduce the boom as the cabinet acted as a sealed enclosure.
So what you have all said is true :
- This mid woofer bottoms out
- changing amps will not fix the issue
- a sealed cabinet better controls this issue
I suspect that this driver would work best in a sealed enclosure crossed to a sub around 80hz. As the driver is quite inefficient (85-87db), I think a powered sub would be best. My idea would be to house the lot in one cabinet with sealed sections, biamping to my valve amp for mids and tweet using low level connections.
I would think a low pass filter on this driver would also be a good thing.
Why do I persist with this driver? Because I reakon the mid range is just 'lush', and the combination with this tweeter is seamless.
regards
I can confirm another mid woofer speaker in the Dynaudio range - the 17W75XL does bottom out. It is different than the plain 17W75 in that it has a Qts of 0.4 - so it is closer to the specs for the 17W75LQ and is suitable for sealed or vented cabinets.
I have mine in a vented cabinet with a D260 Esotec tweeter using the 'Nuance' diy design (much like the Audience 62). The other night I was listening to a Ray Brown playing bass and I heard this muffling boom in the bass. I tried everything to get rid of the boom including:
- change amps. Went from my 40W cyrus to a 14W pp triode valve to a 70W Pioneer with no difference
- change speaker location. Bring them into the room. No change.
- put in some stuffing, pull out some stuffing. No change
- change the vent tuning frequency. No change.
- stuffed some socks in the vents. This did reduce the boom as the cabinet acted as a sealed enclosure.
So what you have all said is true :
- This mid woofer bottoms out
- changing amps will not fix the issue
- a sealed cabinet better controls this issue
I suspect that this driver would work best in a sealed enclosure crossed to a sub around 80hz. As the driver is quite inefficient (85-87db), I think a powered sub would be best. My idea would be to house the lot in one cabinet with sealed sections, biamping to my valve amp for mids and tweet using low level connections.
I would think a low pass filter on this driver would also be a good thing.
Why do I persist with this driver? Because I reakon the mid range is just 'lush', and the combination with this tweeter is seamless.
regards
Are you just one 17W75LQ? For me I'm running two units also running two 30W100 which I am not rely the 17W75LQ to do all the work as in other systems which their only running 17W75LQ and the tweeter. Also I am running these in a sealed enclosure, like I said I am not rolling them off on the bottom at all. I crossed them at 70 Hz and they didn’t sound as good. Crossing them at 70 Hz looked they pushed the energy up further and made it sound little etched. If you looked at my previous link there is a photo of how the speaker is configured.
I am running one 17W75XL in each cabinet. This driver is very similar to your 17W75LQ of which you have two in each cabinet.
Your configuration would work alot better than mine, or the 52SE or the 1.3. As you mentioned, problems occur when these drivers are 'overdriven'.
In my case what happens is I dial up the volume to get the feeling of bass, and it all goes pear shaped. At moderate levels all is well, but put on some music that you want loud and bingo.
I suspect with your 30W drivers you would be moving a lot more air, and have significantly more bass impact at lower volumes, and may not feel the need to turn up the volume as much - which is why you would not be as concerned about the 'bottoming out' situation.
As for the 'etched' sound, I can see how this might happen with a capacitor rolling off the frequencies below 70hz. I found my Dyn's to be extremely sensitive to capacitors, and a change of caps did reduce etch, grain, sibilance and the like in the hf crossover. In addition, the sound of these drivers in a sealed enclosure gives much more presence to the lower mid frequencies than in a vented configuration.
I intend moving toward a sealed enclosure with a powered sub in the same cabinet. I read somewhere the only way you can improve the sound of the Dyns is to seek out 'high current' amplifiers to drive their large voice coils.
This cost of this exercise can outweigh the cost of different speaker designs or alignments which is why I dont want to spend big $ on a nice fat amp, and still be left with the bass contraints offered by a 120cm2 driver.
Your configuration would work alot better than mine, or the 52SE or the 1.3. As you mentioned, problems occur when these drivers are 'overdriven'.
In my case what happens is I dial up the volume to get the feeling of bass, and it all goes pear shaped. At moderate levels all is well, but put on some music that you want loud and bingo.
I suspect with your 30W drivers you would be moving a lot more air, and have significantly more bass impact at lower volumes, and may not feel the need to turn up the volume as much - which is why you would not be as concerned about the 'bottoming out' situation.
As for the 'etched' sound, I can see how this might happen with a capacitor rolling off the frequencies below 70hz. I found my Dyn's to be extremely sensitive to capacitors, and a change of caps did reduce etch, grain, sibilance and the like in the hf crossover. In addition, the sound of these drivers in a sealed enclosure gives much more presence to the lower mid frequencies than in a vented configuration.
I intend moving toward a sealed enclosure with a powered sub in the same cabinet. I read somewhere the only way you can improve the sound of the Dyns is to seek out 'high current' amplifiers to drive their large voice coils.
This cost of this exercise can outweigh the cost of different speaker designs or alignments which is why I dont want to spend big $ on a nice fat amp, and still be left with the bass contraints offered by a 120cm2 driver.
Hi adamt
Yea that was what I suspected on the bottoming out issue is having a single driver trying to produce low end bass. Actually I have never heard of this problem until recently. My friend mentioned that to me a few weeks ago. He was just going to run two 17W75LQ’s and the Esotar setup and just cross the mid-bass and the tweeter and someone told him he needed cap the 17W75LQ at 70hz and not let it roll off an lower than that. They told him be sure to cap it if not he could damage the driver if gets to it’s natural roll off point. That was when he started asking me about the bottoming issue. As I said to him didn’t Sonus Faber use that setup in their two way monitor in the past, using a 7” with the Esotar and the cabinet was carved out from a tree and they were charging well over $12,000 a pair. I told I wondered how they got away with that problem. I told him the speakers I have never came to that point yet. I can tell you having the 30w100’s in place sure helps because if I did try driving it hard I think I would split the sheetrock on the ceiling first before the 17W75LQ would bottom out. I’m sure the sound pressure would be enough to make my ears bleed. For my amp as you see in the link to the photo on my prior thread, I am running a high current amp, a Krell KSA300S which is a pure class-A amp at 300 watts per side at 8 ohms. These drivers I have here are 8 ohms running in parallel which is pulling them down to 4 ohms, so really the amp is now at 600W per side class-A at 4 ohms. I also have a dedicated 30A power line coming into the house just for the amp only, so it should be getting enough current for this setup.
Yea that was what I suspected on the bottoming out issue is having a single driver trying to produce low end bass. Actually I have never heard of this problem until recently. My friend mentioned that to me a few weeks ago. He was just going to run two 17W75LQ’s and the Esotar setup and just cross the mid-bass and the tweeter and someone told him he needed cap the 17W75LQ at 70hz and not let it roll off an lower than that. They told him be sure to cap it if not he could damage the driver if gets to it’s natural roll off point. That was when he started asking me about the bottoming issue. As I said to him didn’t Sonus Faber use that setup in their two way monitor in the past, using a 7” with the Esotar and the cabinet was carved out from a tree and they were charging well over $12,000 a pair. I told I wondered how they got away with that problem. I told him the speakers I have never came to that point yet. I can tell you having the 30w100’s in place sure helps because if I did try driving it hard I think I would split the sheetrock on the ceiling first before the 17W75LQ would bottom out. I’m sure the sound pressure would be enough to make my ears bleed. For my amp as you see in the link to the photo on my prior thread, I am running a high current amp, a Krell KSA300S which is a pure class-A amp at 300 watts per side at 8 ohms. These drivers I have here are 8 ohms running in parallel which is pulling them down to 4 ohms, so really the amp is now at 600W per side class-A at 4 ohms. I also have a dedicated 30A power line coming into the house just for the amp only, so it should be getting enough current for this setup.
Wow thats some horsepower!
I have tried these drivers in a variety of configurations. One of the best I heard was wide baffle sealed - a little bit like an Audionote or Snell speaker. I guess it had a depth of only 160cm leaving aside the wood, and a front baffle width of about 330cm.
Quite a rich sound, and the mid bass was really 'full'.
I wouldn't be confident these drivers would work on an open baffle though. I think it would produce too much driver excursion introducing further distortion into the mix. I think it likes to be supported by a well built cabinet and damping material to work at its best.
The tower speakers you have look like one of the DIY kits available in the mid eighties. They sure were impressive in the hifi shop I visited against a wall of two way monitors!
regards
I have tried these drivers in a variety of configurations. One of the best I heard was wide baffle sealed - a little bit like an Audionote or Snell speaker. I guess it had a depth of only 160cm leaving aside the wood, and a front baffle width of about 330cm.
Quite a rich sound, and the mid bass was really 'full'.
I wouldn't be confident these drivers would work on an open baffle though. I think it would produce too much driver excursion introducing further distortion into the mix. I think it likes to be supported by a well built cabinet and damping material to work at its best.
The tower speakers you have look like one of the DIY kits available in the mid eighties. They sure were impressive in the hifi shop I visited against a wall of two way monitors!
regards
The speaker is all Dynaudio drivers was built in 1996, a Di'Apollito configuration in a cabinet built of HDF 1-1/2” (3.81cm) thick completely around with a 3” (7.62cm) front baffle and also 1-1/2” (3.81cm) heavily internal bracing, 70” (177.8cm) H, 24” (60.96cm) D, 15” (38.1cm) W, wrapped in Ebony weighing over 450 lbs (204.116kg). This is set up for bi-wired, the mid woofers and tweeter are on one set of Edison Price terminals and the woofers are on another separate set of Edison Price terminals. From there the current is carried through on two sets of Synergistic Research Phase II cables. Just to give you an idea.
I have a small two-way with a D260 and and a 17W75LQ. I don't know what people expect from such a tiny driver. If they can really manage to bottom it then they are really asking too much of it. It shouldn't be possible to bottom it with normal domestic listening levels.
Out of curiosity I once drove them with a P.A. amp (300 Watts/ch) not much below clipping. They didn't bottom out but the sound definitely got blurred. I won't run them very long that way since it would wear them out but it showed me that they can take some real punishment.
Those D'Appolitos look sexy BTW.
Regards
Charles
Out of curiosity I once drove them with a P.A. amp (300 Watts/ch) not much below clipping. They didn't bottom out but the sound definitely got blurred. I won't run them very long that way since it would wear them out but it showed me that they can take some real punishment.
Those D'Appolitos look sexy BTW.
Regards
Charles
phase_accurate said:
@to all
Guys, you're missing the point here; there's not problem with high expectations or with DIY or whatever: the problem is that particular driver is bottoming out, and the another (even in fairly cheaper product line) is not. For example: Dyn Audience 50 can not came even close to bottoming out even driven to unsane level, and with bass excursions to die for. I had those little speakers and this is rue. Also this is true for 1.3 SE (sold), and Confidence C1 (upgraded from 1.3SE). Also heard (home listening) the new Focus 140 - also perfect working in this respect - it can be droven to whatever level you want whitin their usual limits.
The only problem here are the both models which use identical driver: 1.3mk2 and Audience 52SE. So, that's not a problem of "expectations" but real problem with particular driver.
I asked from service center to replace the drivers since my 1.3's have still warranty, and we'll se, I'm waiting for them.
I think you got it wrong. It's fine to run things full range, and I also try to do it. But the reason why people don't do it out of some kind of error, but out of need. As you said it's their only low frequency source.
The speaker WILL bottom at the low end, and work harder, get hotter, etc. That will add distortion and other problems that you don't need to deal with if you have another speaker to take care of the low end.
Try adding a series capacitor to the 17W75LQ, to cut say below 100Hz, and listen to it. There might be changes that you may like or not. It's easy to try.
Carlos
Some more thoughts about this matter.
Speakers may bottom out more easily and/or do some kind whoosing/muffling sound in vented cabinets.
If I am not wrong, Sonus Faber uses the 17W75LQ in a version that it specially made for them. So don't expect it to be the same you could get in the past from stores (I think Dynaudio is not selling speakers anymore, do they?).
Sonus also used a passive radiator in the back, also 6.5", which is closer to a sealed cabinet.
What Sonus Faber tried is to have the simpler crossover, which also included a free working tweeter.
The passive speaker prevented the bottoming too.
Carlos
Speakers may bottom out more easily and/or do some kind whoosing/muffling sound in vented cabinets.
If I am not wrong, Sonus Faber uses the 17W75LQ in a version that it specially made for them. So don't expect it to be the same you could get in the past from stores (I think Dynaudio is not selling speakers anymore, do they?).
Sonus also used a passive radiator in the back, also 6.5", which is closer to a sealed cabinet.
What Sonus Faber tried is to have the simpler crossover, which also included a free working tweeter.
The passive speaker prevented the bottoming too.
Carlos
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